---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


***************************************************************
       THIS YEAR'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY: 

          Northern  Brewer, Ltd. Home Brew Supplies
        http://www.northernbrewer.com  1-800-681-2739

    Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********


Contents:
  brewing software (Rob Hudson)
  Culture, Laws, Scandy, Cdn, CH (Alexandre Enkerli)
  Re: "Anheuser lager"? ("Rodney Reeves")
  AB, World Select, Bare Knuckles and such (Richard Foote)
  Re: brew software ("Drew Avis")
  Kids and beer (Thomas Rohner)
  Re: Pilsen ("Richard Schmittdiel")
  Price of kegging equipment (Michael Hartsock)
  RE: A/B lager (Brian Lundeen)
  more on barrels (Wayne Clark)
  Brew Pubs/Bars in the El Paso area ("Mark Terry")
  Wasn't Re: Beer Culture in Scandinavia ("-S")
  Kids and beer ("Jay Spies")


*
* Show your HBD pride! Wear an HBD Badge! 
* http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/shopping
*
* The HBD Logo Store is now open!
* http://www.hbd.org/store.html
*
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!
*


Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL
  ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to
  the digest as we cannot reach you. We will not correct your address
  for the automation - that's your job.

HAVING TROUBLE posting, subscribing or unsusubscribing? See the HBD FAQ at
http://hbd.org.

The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright 
  HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK 
  before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content 
  cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit.

More information is available by sending the word "info" to 
req at hbd.org or read the HBD FAQ at http://hbd.org.

JANITOR on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)



----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 22:02:39 -0700
From: Rob Hudson <rob at tastybrew.com>
Subject: brewing software

> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 18:04:54 -0500
> From: "John Sarette" <j2saret at peoplepc.com>
> Subject: brew software, misc tools
> 
> pro mash says: 1.046 og. srm 5.7 IBU 31.9
> q brew says:   1.055 og. srm 8   IBU 28
> 
> It is obvious that qbrew's author(s)mash and sparge with higher
> efficiency than I do.  I hope to achieve such someday.  What I don't
> understand is the discrepancy in colour and bitterness.

I think both pieces of software default to a 75% mash efficiency.  You
can set both to different values.  I'm more familiar with QBrew, and you
can set it in Options -> Configure.

One possible cause for the discrepancy could be a higher points per
pound per gallon value for the grains selected.  If QBrew's 2-row is 37
ppg and Promash's is 36, you'll get a difference in original gravities.
The colors might be slightly different for the grains as well.  Just
keep in mind that not all software has the same specs for all grains.

If QBrew's OG was higher as a result of this, the utilization factor for
calculating IBUs could drop since iso-alpha calculations are (or should
be) affected by the boil gravity.  The higher the gravity, the lower the
utilization.

Just some possible causes for the above.

Cheers!
Rob
- --
Rob Hudson <rob at tastybrew.com>
Homebrewer, Programmer, Webmaster
http://www.tastybrew.com/


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 03:27:01 -0400
From: Alexandre Enkerli <aenkerli at indiana.edu>
Subject: Culture, Laws, Scandy, Cdn, CH

Chin Chin!

First off, I'd like to say my comment about "regional" aspects of binge 
drinking was mostly a disclaimer. I can only talk about what I 
observed. In fact, I didn't observe the actual binge drinking much, but 
I did notice the effects. And I didn't mean to say binge drinking was 
specific to a given context, just that it goes well with the mainstream 
attitudes in the MidWest. As a culturalist, I just wanted to keep the 
ball rolling on cultural aspects of alcohol consumption.
Interesting that there should be a consensus of EU/US differences in 
attitude. A lot must have to do with temperance, prohibition, 
puritanism, and other important aspects of North American cultural 
history.
One thing that shocked me at IU is that there's a tendency for teachers 
and graduate students there to call undergraduates "kids," although 
most of them are technically adults. For a Quebecker, this is a very 
foreign concept and quite a striking one. For better or worse, there's 
a very widespread stereotype outside the US (encountered it in Quebec, 
Europe, and Africa) that people in the US are "less mature" than their 
chronological age. Given the visible behaviour of some young adults, 
this stereotype is hard to shake. My personal perception is that this 
stereotype relates more to the way young adults (say, 17 to 22) are 
treated than their actual maturity.
About Scandinavia...Only went to Stockholm for a few wonderful days in 
1994 and I can't say I saw anything related to US attitudes toward 
alcohol there but it's possibly present. One thing, the heavy taxation 
had apparently changed somewhat and was a rather hot topic.
Speaking of Scandy, been reading Zymurgy 17(4) Special 1994 on "Special 
Ingredients and Indigenous Beer" with an article on "gotlandsdricka" 
which sounds like a Scandinavian equivalent to Finnish "sahti"...

Canadian provinces also tax alcohol very heavily. In some provinces 
(NB), alcohol is only sold at liquor stores. In other provinces (Qc), 
alcohol is sold almost everywhere (every convenience store) but is 
controlled by the central liquor board that also has its own stores. 
Provinces vary slightly on drinking age but (IIRC) most are either 18 
(Qc) or 19 (NB). Carding is rather rare (compared to the US) but 
underage drinking can be a big deal. Laws against drunk driving are 
quite harsh, especially to younger drivers. Controls are frequent, 
especially during Holidays where free services exist to drive your car 
for you. For some reason, there are laws on the time of day when 
alcohol might be purchased in stores (11PM in Qc) but Sundays are 
legitimate days to purchase it.
BTW, is there a fellow HBDer who knows a lot about alcohol laws in 
Switzerland? For instance, are there laws on homebrewed quantities?

Alex



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 09:18:44 -0400
From: "Rodney Reeves" <reeves871 at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: "Anheuser lager"? 

Hello all,

I am new here but I am enjoying all the good advice tips etc.  I just
wanted say hello to you all while chiming in on the following:

"We challenged our top brew masters representing 10 countries around the
globe to collaborate and create something extraordinary"

Wouldn't this be the case of too many chefs?  I just started brewing but
I think I could already put together a pretty great pilsner.  At least
one that is "a beer worthy of the name Anheuser".  Why would you need
ten or more brewers?  




1



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 09:45:39 -0400
From: Richard Foote <rfoote at mindspring.com>
Subject: AB, World Select, Bare Knuckles and such

Adding to this recent thread started by Jeff R...

Last week I happened to be visiting at my Mother-in-laws in New Hampster
when my wife suggested a tour of the AB brewery in nearby Merrimack.  The
kids would enjoy the Clydesdales in residence there, and I could nab a
couple freebies.  From two previous tours of this AB location, I knew they
often use this brewery to brew new stuff.  Anyone remember Elk Mountain?
So the mention of "FREE" and "BEER" in the same sentence, and I'm there.

I thought I might get a fresh, non-light-struck World Select but no
ceegar. Apparently, they don't brew it there.  But, I did get a sample of
their new Bare Knuckles Stout that Mark Tumarkin mentioned.  It was served
on draught and pushed with nitro.  The tour leader had described it as a
light Guinness.  It was indeed in the dry stout classification.  It had a
nice, tight, off-white creamy head.  The aroma was of fresh, grainy,
roasted malt with no hops to speak of.  Bitterness was perceivable.  
Color was as you'd expect for style.  It wasn't bad.

Various posters had mentioned that World Select is obviously designed to
compete for market share with the imports such as Heiniken and Grolsch.
WRT Bare Knuckles, this brings up an interesting point.  It would seem
Bare Knuckles is being groomed to do battle with Big G.  This is
interesting, because during our tour, the tour guide mentioned that Bud is
brewed for the European market through a contractual arrangement with
Guinness.  Hmmm...


Rick Foote
Whistle PIg Brewing
Murrayville, GA



You mention the sign you saw in California that said, - "Ten
Brewmasters. Four
Continents. One Beer."

This is the slogan for Anheuser World Select, a recently announced
product. You were correct in observing that the green bottle signifies an
intention to compete with the premium imports. Their Bare Knuckle brand is
also part of this attempt to compete with better quality brews. I haven't
had the opportunity to try either of these products.





Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:39:19 -0400
From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: brew software

John Sarette asks about the different values you get from different
homebrewing software packages for a similar recipe.

It's important to understand that ingredients that look similar in the
various programs may in fact have quite different specifications.  You
need to check, for example, that if you're brewing with "munich malt",
that the potential extract and lovibond rating are the same in the
software as the ingredient you're using.  Same goes for the alpha acid %
for hops.

A couple of other notes: there are a few different ways to predict colour.
Assuming that your grain bill has identical lovibond ratings in all the
software you run, and you've adjusted the brewhouse efficiency to the same
number, you may still get a different prediction depending on the colour
method used.

This holds true for predictions of IBUs as well.  Most software lets you
select an IBU prediction method, the most popular being Tinseth, Garetz,
and Rager.  There are other variations on these, which are less popular.  
Each method will predict a different number, given the same hop bill.  
Some packages also have compensation factors for hop type (giving you more
bitterness for pellets, for example), which adds additional variability.

I think these variables probably account for the discrepancies you're
seeing.

Cheers!
Drew Avis, Ottawa, Ontario
http://www.strangebrew.ca


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 17:33:20 +0200
From: Thomas Rohner <t.rohner at bluewin.ch>
Subject: Kids and beer

Hi all i see that there seems to be a consensus, that letting the kids try
the stuff, results in a more responsible alcohol-handling later on. I see
it the same way, but what would be the legal consequences for U.S.
citizens if they let their kids try it.(and the wrong person gets a hint)
Can't you get in trouble for this? I don't know what would happen here,
but i don't think it would be more than a harsh word from a judge. just
curious

Thomas



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 09:04:22 -0700
From: "Richard Schmittdiel" <schmitrw at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Pilsen

Andy,

If you can, go for the whole thing, and do the decoction mash.  At least a
double decoction.  Our brew club, the Maltose Falcons, recently did a
blind taste-off of two european-style pale lagers that were brewed by one
of our members.  Identical recipes, yeasts, and side-by-side fermentation.  
One was a double decoction, and the other a step-infusion mash.  The
differences were clearly discernable, with the decoction mash having a
smoother, rounder profile.  Most tasters preferred that one.  Or you can
try the same experiment for yourself, and see which you prefer.  Post the
results to HBD.

Rich Schmittdiel
Possum Holler Brewery
in Southern California



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:12:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com>
Subject: Price of kegging equipment

I've been thinking about kegging, but I'm quite
discouraged.  I've been quoted $70-$100 for a 5# CO2
cylinder and $120 for a 20#.

Is there is cheaper option?  These prices put kegging
out of my reach.  

Any advice/help would be appreciated.

Michael
Columbia, MO

=====
"May those who love us, love us.
And those that don't love us,
May God turn their hearts.
And if he doesn't turn their hearts,
may he turn their ankles
So we'll know them
by their limping."



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 12:54:30 -0500
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: A/B lager

Jeff Renner writes:

Years ago I said to a beer class I was teaching that it was obvious 
that A/B could make beer better than anyone else in the world, and it 
they decided to make PU, they could.  Sounds like they decided to 
make Heiniken instead.  Too bad.  

Me: I think the "Ten brewmasters" part explains it all. Pick the insulting
analogy you want, whether cooks and broth, or the committee's racehorse. I
do not believe you can achieve excellence by consensus. One person, one
vision, one brewpot, that's the way to go. You know what they say. When
you "compromise", you make a "comp" out of "ro" and "mise". Or something
like that. ;-)

Cheers
Brian, in Winnipeg


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 11:02:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Wayne Clark <driftwoodtex at yahoo.com>
Subject: more on barrels

A few years ago I toured the Carneros Alambic
Distillery in California. Their main product is brandy
made from the local grapes. Part of the tour was
through an enormous building where the barrels of
brandy were aged. If I recall the process correctly,
they started with the new brandy in a large size
barrel. After a time, the brandy would be moved to
successively smaller barrels until the brandy was at
the proper age, and was then bottled. The smell in
that building was absolutely heavenly. They even had a
term for the volume that was lost to evaporation
through the wood - the angel's share.



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 20:08:21 +0000
From: "Mark Terry" <psionara at hotmail.com>
Subject: Brew Pubs/Bars in the El Paso area

Hi there.  Apologies if I should not be posting messages of this nature to 
the HBD.

My sister is due to leave Assen in Holland and move to El Paso, TX for two
years.  Can anyone recommend any brew pubs or good bars(i.e. serving a
good range of beers) in the area?

Regards

Mark



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 16:12:44 -0400
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: Wasn't Re: Beer Culture in Scandinavia

Well the topic was really about the difficulty US adolescents have in
integrating alcohol use in their lives, not primarily Scandinavian
drinking patterns.  Jonathan Royce high-jacks the topic a bit and adds
some detail on some modern Scandinavian drinking practices.

My reason for bringing up Northern Euro binge patterns was to point to a
possible cultural source of the difference Alexandre mentioned.  
Alexandre observed binge drinking in college students in Indiana but not
Quebec.  This could be related to ancient cultural influences;  
French(French-Canadian) culture vs US culture which has more N.European
influence. Here is a fact sheet on binge drinking
http://www.ias.org.uk/factsheets/alcoholbinge.pdf which shows the relative
prevalence of binge drinking among men: France9; Italy13; Germany14;
Finland 29; Sweden33; UK40.  Obviously there is a considerably more binge
drinking in far N.Euro as opposed to Italy, Germany & France.

When I mentioned festival binge drinking I was referring to the early
Cristian era, not modern holiday practices.  Here is a description of the
historical drinking patterns and some statistical analysis wrt culture and
binge drinking in Europe related to Roman influence.
http://www.indiana.edu/~engs/articles/cathprot.htm

> In my experience, students on American
> college campuses often drink with a goal in mind of getting drunk.
 ...
> drunkenness that often occurs at a Swedish Midsummer party is a
byproduct
of
> the social setting in which the party takes place, but it is not the
goal.

Well - I'd agree to an extent.  I'm quite certain that all the mentioned
cultures have party events at which one or two of the "amateurs" misjudge
their limit by 1 or 2 drinks.  That isn't binge drinking by my definition.
Binge drinking is represented by the adolescent w/ the goal only to get
drunk, the Mardi Gras reveler who is way past any reasonable limit and
drinking more, by the hundreds brandishing vodka bottles in the
Scandanavian (is it May 1 in Copenhagen that I saw in the news) public
celebrations, the early Christian era N.Euro festivals or by modern
Swedish/Finnish ferry trips (binge drinking at sea to avoid taxation).

Drinking just a couple too many is a quantitative miscalulation of
judgement, the others are complete lack of judgement.  I wouldn't agree
w/Jonathan's definition that 5 drinks (say 5 12oz Buds) in a row
represents binge drinking.  Several UK references suggest figures around
10 drinks which is closer to what I had in mind.

>[Context ..]  is a very big part of the distinction between what
> others have coined the "American" and "European" attitudes
> towards alcohol.

There are distinct attitudes w/in Europe.  If there is a consistent US
difference it's probably our penchant for attaching a moral tag to confuse
the issue.  Taxation and control of alcohol in Scandanavia and Iceland
have clear prohibitionist overtones more restrictive than the US.  The
N.European prevalence of binge drinking and youth drinking matches or
exceeds the US.  In one study of Europe binge drinking (10+drinks) was
most widespread in Denmark, Greenland, Ireland and the United Kingdom in
that order.  France, Germany were mid-low in that ranking.  Iceland seems
to have terrific problems w/ youth drinking, weekend binge drinking and
drunken driving (almost 1% of the entire population arrested each year for
DUI!) after lifting certain prohibitionistic laws.

UK's approach to alcohol problems seem to be different than US&Scand.  
Their problem is somewhat more severe statistically than in the US, but
prohibition and prohibitive taxation isn't their solution (Why is that ?
Any UKers lurking here ?).  When I read UK gov't and medical papers on
alcohol consumption rates and problems I don't see the unrealistic
definitions (5 drinks = binge, 20gm/day = excess) that I see on the
DARE/MADD/neoprohibitionist influenced US sources.  Some of he Australian
web sources seem to follow the US/MADD model of reporting - which is
interesting.

What we call the  "European attitude" is, I think, more represented by
Germany, France and S.European countries which have higher per capita
consumption rates and accept alcohol as a normal part of life w/o
prohibitionist attitudes.   There are social prohibitions against
drunkenness, but less-so against adolesent drinking.

As I read statistics I become less sure that France or others have an
advantage.  There is less binge drinking in France despite much higher per
capita consumption than US or N.Europe, but more children drink heavily
and the French have high rates of alc related auto crashes(Germany too).
Interesting that in one recent study of French youth drinking patterns
beer and liquor were the drinks of choice among the <16yo and wine was a
distant 3rd place.  Maybe that system is in too much flux to generalize a
trend from current data.

 -S




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 17:07:54 -0400
From: "Jay Spies" <jayspies at citywidehomeloans.com>
Subject: Kids and beer

All -

tOM Trottier in #4304 spaketh thusly:

>>>Since adolescence is the age of rebellion, I think generally it's best
for the parents to offer alcohol to taste before and during this age. Then
they can rebel against it....<<<

HA!  How true.  While I am not a parent, I do have a brother who is 18 (16
years younger than me - you do the math...) and I have exposed him for
about 6 years now to the brewing process, beer in general, and tried to
educate him as best I could on the increased enjoyment one gets from
responsible alcohol consumption rather than excessive.  He's brewed
several batches with me, and knows far more about beer than I GUARANTEE
100% of his peers.

Now that he's 18 and has gone through the adolescent "my parents are
stupid" stage, he's come to follow his own path - he doesn't drink at all.  
Not by any pressure one way or another, and cetainly not from my influence
- I encourage him to ask me questions and participate and try my/our brews
whenever he wants - but he has a "been there, brewed that" mentality about
him that I find refreshing.  So many of his peers who have an "alcohol
taboo" mindset try and go out and get plowed whenever possible, but he's
not really impressed and doesn't do that - I like to think in large part
because of his upbringing - alcohol has no magic to him.  It's like
caffeine or ibuprofen or whatever.  Nothing special.  He's proud of his
non-drinking stance, and he's not a dork, either.  Looks like he rebelled
the right way.

I'm very impressed with him, and just thought I'd add my .02 on my little
~6 year experiment.......

Jay Spies
Charm City Altobrewery
Baltimore, MD



Return to table of contents

---