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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Culture, laws, Scandi, aso (Thomas Rohner)
  Re: Price of kegging equipment (Sean Carothers)
  Re: Price of kegging equipment (Todd Goodman)
  La Folie (K.M.)" <kmuell18 at visteon.com>
  Isohop and boiling (Thomas D Hamann)
  re: Price of kegging equipment ("The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty")
  RE: Kids and beer ("David Hagan")
  Re:A/B lager ("The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty")
  Re: Culture, Laws, Sweden ("Pete Calinski")
  RE: "Anheuser lager"? ("Rodney Reeves")
  RE: colour swatches (Brian Lundeen)
  Re: Beer Culture (NO Spam)
  Counterflow Chilling and Break ("Caryl Hornberger Slone")
  RE: Kids and beer ("Dennis Lewis")
  Cheaper Co2 cylinder solutions ("Steve Dale-Johnson")
  Price of CO2 cylinders (Leo Vitt)
  Hop Madness Sept. 6 & 7 (Denny Conn)
  continued from the last rock ("John Sarette")
  Apology (Grant Family)
  re: kid and beer (Grant Family)


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Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 10:41:32 +0200
From: Thomas Rohner <t.rohner at bluewin.ch>
Subject: Culture, laws, Scandi, aso

Hi Folks, hi Alex
you asked about laws, regarding homebrew quantities in Switzerland.
It's quite easy. As long as you don't sell, or give it away for free
to the open public, there are no laws. (giving it away means: you go
on the street and give it to anyone who walks by. If you go to a party
and bring some kegs, there is no problem)
If you sell it, or give it away, you are required to pay a beer tax.
(this amounts to 75 U.S. cents a gallon or 27 swiss cents a litre)
As you start to sell or give it away, you are also required to keep
the hygiene standards, which can be controlled. (try to brew beer
without them...)
Seen in this light it's pretty funny to read, that in the country
of the free (U.S.), there are still states who prohibit homebrewing,
shipping or transporting it.
Two years ago i toured scandinavia in a motorhome. I had really
good times there. The taxation of alcoholic beverages really
striked me. But they have really long and dark winters there. You
can get quite melancholic, and try to drown it in the booze. Maybe
they are right in taxing it that high. But the dudes and dudettes 
up there  are pretty inventive in circumventing those laws. 
I have a cusine in the north of Sweden, her husband has honey bees. 
When there are not enough flowers around, he needs to feed them with 
(cane) sugar. So my cusine goes to a supermarket and buys some 10kg bags
of sugar. The sales persons will have a knowing smile on their faces.
You know why? Because many people ferment sugar with a special yeast
that includes nutrients. Then they distill it, and add flavour
concentrates like gin, cognac, whiskey and so on.
So much about my scandy experiences. I will go there again soon, because
i like the people and the nature there.

have a good time an legalize homebrewing

Thomas



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 03:25:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Sean Carothers <seancarothers at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Price of kegging equipment

The cylinder prices aren't a whole lot cheaper, but
this is the most affordable price I've seen on the
whole kit (keg, cylinder, regulator, lines).

http://www.brewersdiscount.com

Sean



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 07:37:44 -0400
From: Todd Goodman <tsg at bonedaddy.net>
Subject: Re: Price of kegging equipment

In HBD #4305, Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> I've been thinking about kegging, but I'm quite
> discouraged.  I've been quoted $70-$100 for a 5# CO2
> cylinder and $120 for a 20#.
> 
> Is there is cheaper option?  These prices put kegging
> out of my reach.  
> 
> Any advice/help would be appreciated.
> 
> Michael
> Columbia, MO

As far as the CO2 thank, visit your local Coke or Pepsi distributor.
I got a 20lb tank on loan for $15 + $40 deposit (if I remember right.)

Refills are only $15 after that.  When I went to a BOC gas place to try
to refill my 5lb tanks they wanted a lot more than that (closer to $40
for the refill I think, they claimed a larger tank wouldn't have cost
much more.

The first time I did this, they let me pick it up, but the bottled gas
transport laws either got more restrictive or are being enforced more.

They wouldn't deliver to a residence so you might have to talk to a
restaurant or convenience store to see if they'll let them deliver there
and let you pick it up (I have a separate account, but get the tank
delivered at work.)

And you don't have to ever worry about hydro testing either.

Todd Goodman
[630.3, 84] Apparent Rennerian


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 08:12:49 -0400
From: "Mueller, Kevin (K.M.)" <kmuell18 at visteon.com>
Subject: La Folie

At the AHA conference in Chicago last month, I tried New Belgium's La Folie
and loved it (I've always been a fan of Rodenbach Grand Cru).  Has anyone
tried to re-create this?  Anyone want to give me a few tips/recipe
suggestions?  Has anyone cultured the yeast/bugs in the bottle?  (I don't
believe its filtered, but may be wrong.)

I've got a friend in Colorado who sent a colleague to Ft. Collins, and he's
shipping me a few bottles to experiment with (and enjoy!)

So...tips, suggestions, recipes, etc.  This will actually be the first
Belgian that I've tried, so you can be as basic as you want.  I do brew all
grain.

Thanks!
Kevin
Canton, MI
Very near the center of the homebrewing universe!!



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Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 21:19:07 +0930
From: Thomas D Hamann <tdhamann at senet.com.au>
Subject: Isohop and boiling

Hi folks,
does anyone have information that I can be led to re the boiling of isohop,
e.g. does the bitterness level change at all?

Regards,

Thomas.



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 09:13:44 -0500
From: "The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty" <mikey at swampgas.com>
Subject: re: Price of kegging equipment

Michael Hartsock laments:
> I've been thinking about kegging, but I'm quite
> discouraged.  I've been quoted $70-$100 for a 5# CO2
> cylinder and $120 for a 20#.

Depending on where you live, you need not actually buy a cylinder.

Lot's of places will essentially rent the cylinder with the fill; the
first time (if you don't already have a cylinder) you'll need to put
down a deposit (I think around here it was about $50 for a 5lb), and
thereafter they just swap out the cylinder every time you come in, at
a cost of 7-12 USD, depending on where you go. Check around.

This doesn't work for places that actually FILL the cylinder you bring
in, but you could always look into a used bottle (try eBay). If you go
used, a hydro test might be a good idea.

- -- taFkaks
====
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html


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Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 09:18:26 -0500
From: "David Hagan" <david at falstaffenterprises.com>
Subject: RE: Kids and beer

<snip>what would be the legal consequences for U.S. citizens if they
let their kids try it.(and the wrong person gets a hint) Can't you get
in
trouble for this? I don't know what would happen here, but i don't think
it
would be more than a harsh word from a judge. just curious</snip>

As a former publican in the state of Texas I can tell you that here it
is 
perfectly legal for parents to give their children alcohol. The
bartender 
or server has to actually serve the drink to the parent, and the parent 
has to give the drink to the child. The legal age to drink in Texas 21.

 -David 




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Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 09:21:13 -0500
From: "The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty" <mikey at swampgas.com>
Subject: Re:A/B lager

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 00:26:48 -0400, Brian Lundeen wrote:

>Me: I think the "Ten brewmasters" part explains it all. Pick the insulting
>analogy you want, whether cooks and broth, or the committee's racehorse. I
>do not believe you can achieve excellence by consensus. One person, one
>vision, one brewpot, that's the way to go. You know what they say. When you
>"compromise", you make a "comp" out of "ro" and "mise". Or something like
>that. ;-)

I dunno -- I kind of figured the "10 brewmasters" thing was really
more of a marketing fiction on the part of A/B. You know, kind of like
Orville Redenbocker, Sara Lee and the Pep Boys. (Granted --  scientist
are still debating the existence of the latter, but you see my point.)

After all, how many "brewmasters" could it possibly take to come up
with a medium gravity light lager recipe?
====
Teleoperate a roving mobile robot from the web:
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html


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Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 10:55:21 -0400
From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: Culture, Laws, Sweden

Alexandre Enkerli wrote, "Only went to Stockholm for a few wonderful days in
1994 and I can't say I saw anything related to US attitudes toward
alcohol."

I saw different.  When I was there in about 1997, the only place one could
get "take home" alcohol was the "System Blogot" (sp) or "Government Store".
It closed Friday at something like 6:00 PM and didn't open until Monday.
So, if you want any drink for the weekend, you have to get it before the
Friday close.

I am certain this encourage excessive binge drinking.  I got there on a
Friday 1/2 hour before closing.  The place was packed.  There were many
"kids" just over the drinking age buying as much as they could carry for
parties over the weekend.  In particular, I remember leaving the store,
behind a girl that couldn't have weighed more that 80 pounds but carrying so
many bags of liquor, she could barely climb the steps.  Outside, two guys,
probably underage, ran over to help her and loaded the booty into a car.

It seemed to me that if the store was open all weekend, they would have just
picked up a bottle or two. But, since they had to get enough to party all
weekend, they got all they could carry or afford.  And, of course, they will
drink every drop they purchased.

To my mind, this policy served to encourage drinking rather than limit it.

Just my $0.02

Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY


***********************************************************
*My goal:
*      Go through life and never drink the same beer twice.
*     (As long as it doesn't mean I have to skip a beer.)
***********************************************************



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Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 11:02:00 -0400
From: "Rodney Reeves" <reeves871 at comcast.net>
Subject: RE: "Anheuser lager"? 


One of the reasons brought to my attention that AB brags about the ten
brewers so people will confuse it with a microbrew thereby eliminating
any association with American beers.  

I live in the Detroit area.  It seems that the microbeer/import thing
was going full steam around the mid-late nineties.  At that time, imho,
it was crushed by the Martini subculture that brought sprits back into
the publics fascination.  I have found that stores that used to have a
huge selection of craftbrews/imports now only carry
Bass/Beck/Heineken/Guiness/Sam Adams.  A retailer that has a small
selection of decent beers told me that Bud outsells even Heinekin (the
number one selling import) 20-1.  Ouch! Where is the support?  

My observation is that in the midwest at least, better brews are not all
that fashionable and even difficult to find. (Although, we do have some
good brewpubs)  I play piano in a restaurant and I have found that
spirits outsell beer 4-1.  Although, the beer we sell is Hacker Pschorr
Weiss, Bass, and Guiness.  

(Finally to the point)  
Why would they enter the market so late in the game?
Would you support a company that has little commitment to brewing a
quality product even if they did have one great brew?   

Rodney



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Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 10:37:30 -0500
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: colour swatches

StrangeDrew writes:

A couple of other notes: there are a few different ways to predict colour.
Assuming that your grain bill has identical lovibond ratings in all the
software you run, and you've adjusted the brewhouse efficiency to the same
number, you may still get a different prediction depending on the colour
method used.

Me: Now this brings me to one of my favorite brew software rant topics: the
colour (or color, as most of you know the word) swatches. I'm told some
people love them. I'm afraid I fall into the opposite camp. I think they are
a waste of programming time. I mean, they just don't look like beer!

It's like having Enzo's 6-year old great-grandchild draw "a car" and using
that to promote the new Ferrari (although there are unconfirmed reports that
Chrysler's K-car line did make it through the initial prototyping stage
based on such a drawing). In fact, even the greatest artists can't make a
painting look like the real thing. At best you can suggest it realistically,
but I'm afraid the colour swatches fall far short of that. Beer is not a
solid colour. It has variations in it. If you have Photoshop, take the
sampling tool to a photograph of beer and watch the colour swatch as you
move it from place to place.

Now, the other problem we are facing here is that the Lovibond scale (or the
other one) is really not large enough to differentiate the millions of
subtle colour variations that can exist. In other words, you could have many
15 L beers (as predicted by the software) and they would all look slightly
different. Different malts even at the same colour rating will contribute
slightly different shades. Now obviously there are other factors at play
over which the brewing software has little control. Processes will affect
the colour, and everybody's will be different. Similarly, monitors will
vary, although some included calibration photographs could be included for
doing that whole Gamma thing that I really don't get. Those are just
complications that muddy the water. The thing to take from this is, we need
to base the colour prediction on more than just the stated colour of the
malt, it must reflect the individual malts actually in use in the recipe.

So given all that and then some, the solution obviously lies with
photographs of actual beers. This is where we, the amateur homebrewing
community, fit into my grand scheme. (Oh, didn't I mention I had a grand
scheme? My bad).

Every homebrewer should photograph a glass of their beers against a white
background in a standard beer glass using agreed upon lighting. Digital of
course, we don't need the K-Mart photo labs of the world throwing a whole
new level of inconsistency into the equation.

These, along with a detailed recipe, would be sent to the brewing software
programmer that wants to take on this project (umm, yeah, that's another big
part of my grand scheme) for inclusion in a giant recipe/photo database. As
recipes are formulated, the software would search the database for the
closest match it can find (umm, OK, we'll probably need an algorithm here,
but hey, that's detail stuff, I'm the big picture guy, OK?) then pull up the
photo associated with that. 

Frankly, I think this idea is brilliant. It puts me on a par with some of
the great visionaries of all time. Anyway, my work here is done. So, what
are you all waiting for? Get going on this, make it happen. I mean, I don't
have all day. 

Cheers
Brian, applying his Really Big Brain (tm) toward making a better tomorrow
for homebrewers everywhere, not just in Winnipeg


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 11:41:56 -0400
From: NO Spam <nospam at brewbyyou.net>
Subject: Re: Beer Culture


>Alexandre observed binge drinking in college students in
>Indiana but not Quebec.

Fair to say that there are alot more wine drinkers in Quebec?
Beer vs Wine have anything to do with it?

Wine is much more of a lifestyle choice in Canada, especially
the French areas.   I do think there's this attitude that wine
goes better with food, and that may also explain part of it.
In the US, beer is usually drank primarily by itself, with the
intent to get drunk, where wine is almost always paired with
food.  Although I have had some GREAT food/beer pairings, as
I'm sure others here have, we are not the 'average guy'.  We
also don't drink Coors Light, but yet they still sell an awful
lot of that stuff, don't they?

>UK's approach to alcohol problems seem to be different than US&Scand.
>Their problem is somewhat  more severe statistically  than in the
>US, but prohibition and prohibitive taxation isn't their solution

Au contraire.  England has had a HUGE taxation problem with their
beer for a long time.  Taxes are the reason why most English beers
are low gravity, low alcohol.

They typical English pub drinker drinks Bitter, which is brewed as a
session beer, at about 1.038.  Why?  Because the English government
a long time ago began taxing beer based on its OG.  Brewers responded
by decreasing the strength of the beer, so they would pay less tax.
Sure, they may SAY that they drink these weak session beers by choice
or as part of an English lifestyle, but its all lies.  It all goes back
to taxes on beer dictating the strength of the beer.

These styles are also greatly enhanced by the Nitro cans.  The
creaminess from the nitro hides the lack of body, which explains
the popularity of those things.

Bill





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Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 10:42:09 -0500
From: "Caryl Hornberger Slone" <chornberger10 at comcast.net>
Subject: Counterflow Chilling and Break

Hello Great Collective!

I'm not sure exactly which break I'm talking about; hot or cold - but after
the boil finishes, its all the wispy white suspended proteins (reminds me of
miso soup).  I'm wondering how people who use counterflow chillers remove
this material, since it only seems to really precipitate out as the wort
cools.

I use an immersion chiller (for now) and am able to chill and then siphon
the wort off after all this stuff has settled.  A few times, I've been
rather sloppy and gotten a large amount of it into the fermentor.  It
settled out, and I just had less beer than usual.

Caryl Hornberger Slone
Ft. Wayne, IN



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Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 14:42:00 -0400
From: "Dennis Lewis" <dblewis at ldc.cc>
Subject: RE: Kids and beer

Thomas Rohner is just curious:

> i see that there seems to be a consensus, that letting the kids try
> the stuff, results in a more responsible alcohol-handling later on.
> I see it the same way, but what would be the legal consequences for
> U.S. citizens if they let their kids try it.(and the wrong person gets
> a hint) Can't you get in trouble for this? I don't know what would
> happen here, but i don't think it would be more than a harsh word from a
judge.

At least in Ohio, the parents are allowed to give alcoholic beverages to
their own children. But if the parents allow someone else's underage
children to drink in your home, like allow your children to have a
party where someone brings alcohol, then the parents can be in serious
legal trouble. Here's a great succinct website that illustrates this:

http://www.state.oh.us/com/liquor/liquor2e.html

I am at least a bit relieved that the government recognizes that parents
have the freedom to choose what's best for their children. I wonder how
the other 49 think about it? I wouldn't mind assembling a page of links
to be posted somewhere...my site or the HBD...  I would need some help
finding links though.

Dennis Lewis
Warren, OH
Still the home of the Little Brewer Training Facility.






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Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 12:02:23 -0700
From: "Steve Dale-Johnson" <sdalejohnson at hotmail.com>
Subject: Cheaper Co2 cylinder solutions

Michael in Columbia, MO is getting discouraged by the high cost of Co2 
cylinders.  I don't know how much cheaper it will be where you are, but try 
asking at fire extinguisher service shops; they use the same Co2, do the 
same pressure testing, and hooked me up with a really slick 15# converted 
scuba tank that's rubberized and all for under $100 canadian, hydrotested 
with a new valve and a fresh fill.    Here they are also able to install a 
Co2 valve on old fire extinguishers that have been hydrotested - the ones 
I've seen make great picnic tanks to take with a corny to parties (the 
little ones are about a 2.5# fill), and are miles cheaper than the aluminum 
5 pounders.  The fire extinguisher shop is also closer than the nearest 
bevgas supplier, and fills are cheaper.
The shop I use can also blend co2/nitrogen but need to know the proportions 
and aren't sure how to configure the dip tube to draw mixed (not stratified) 
gas consistently.  Anyone have experience with this one?
Welding shops may also be able to help you out, although the valve on my Co2 
tank is different than the one on my MIG welder and that may be a problem.

HTH;

Steve Dale-Johnson
Brewing at (1918 miles, 298 degrees) Rennerian
Delta (Vancouver), BC, Canada.



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Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 12:12:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Leo Vitt <leo_vitt at yahoo.com>
Subject: Price of CO2 cylinders

 Michael Hartsock asked: 

>I've been thinking about kegging, but I'm quite
>discouraged.  I've been quoted $70-$100 for a 5# CO2
>cylinder and $120 for a 20#.

>Is there is cheaper option?  These prices put kegging
>out of my reach.  

Have you talked to a supplier about leasing the tank?
Welding supply businesses will exchange tanks.
When you need a refill, you trade the tank in for a full one.
Yes there is a refill charge.

I think prices are similiar to what you named.
Lifetime lease around $75 on 5#.  I forget for 20#.
Both cost $10-15 to refill, even though there is 4 times the gas in the
larger tank.
  

=====
Leo Vitt
Sidney, NE



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Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 13:22:53 -0800
From: Denny Conn <denny at projectoneaudio.com>
Subject: Hop Madness Sept. 6 & 7

Hop Madness, a celebration of hops and their role in beer, is coming to the 
Willamette Valley. Homebrewers from all over the country are invited to 
come enjoy all that hops can offer. From brewing FRESH-hop harvest ales to 
touring hop farms in active harvest, homebrewers can revel in all of the 
madness that is Hops!
The Madness runs from noon Sept. 6 to noon on Sept. 7 at the Willamette 
Mission State Park smack dab in the middle of Oregon's premiere hop growing 
region (just outside of Salem, Ore.).
Activities include harvest ale brewing, tours of a hop farm during harvest, 
live music by Los Mex Pistols, a bicycle tour though the hop farms in the 
area, and the Best Damn Hoppy Beer homebrew contest.
Hop Madness is targeted at homebrewers, but anyone that wants to worship 
hops is welcome to join in the celebration. Overnight camping is 
recommended. This is a Bring Your Own Everything event. Bring your own 
food, homebrew and other refreshments, tents, lawn chairs, brewing 
equipment, sunscreen and bicycles. Freshly picked hop bines and water will 
be available for harvest ale brewers. The entrance fee is only $3 per day 
to cover the Oregon State Park's day use fee.
Hop Madness is sponsored by FresHops, the Willamette Valley Homebrewing 
Clubs (Cascade Brewers Society, Strange Brew, Heart of the Valley 
Homebrewers and the Oregon Brew Crew), Oregon Trail Brewery, Tastybrew.com 
and the Oregon Brewers Guild.
Visit the Hop Madness (www.hopmadness.com) Web site for more details on 
activities, directions, reviews of last years events, and sample music from 
Los Mex Pistols.
CONTACT: Dan Schultz  503.657.0880



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Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 19:36:28 -0500
From: "John Sarette" <j2saret at peoplepc.com>
Subject: continued from the last rock

Thanks for the quick answers on brewing software.  I always find out when I
ask a question that there is even more I need to know.  I'll dig into the
q-brew defaults and see where its assumptions lie.

Well I brewed that beer and about a gallon of water disappeared.  I have
used about the same weight of ingredients and about the same mashing and
sparging rations for my last three beers.  One was clone brew porter, the
next the same porter with a box of (crushed) cheerios added and the last the
afore mentioned CAP.  In the first two beers my yield to the fermenter was
about 5.5 gallons (by eyeball on 1 gallons lines on side of fermenter) in
this last beer my yield was about 4.5 gallons, so I added one gallon of our
wonderful duluth tap water.
I have two questions:  1.  would CAP evaportate at a much greater rate than
the porters?  2.  If the 4.5 gallons of wort had a gravity of 1.060 would I
be right in reasoning that the 5.5 gallons in my fermenter would have tested
to about 1.045?  ( q-brew had predicted 1.055 and pro-mash 1.046)  I
reasoned that 60/4=15 pts per unit. dilution by one additional unit would
drop the O.G by 15 pts to 1.045

John
(thanks again)
"Labor is prior to, and independent of capital.
Capital is only the fruit of labour and could never have existed
if labor had not first existed.
Labor is the superior of capital and deserves
much the higher consideratiion."
A. Lincoln (1st marxist er Republican president)



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Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 11:36:50 +1000
From: Grant Family <grants at netspace.net.au>
Subject: Apology

G'day

Jason raised the point that I was irresponsible in my use of the term Nazi in
my last post. To Jason, and anyone else who may have been offended, I
whole-heartedly apologize.

I used the term "nazi" - where fascist might have been more accurate - to
*figuratively* describe the attitudes that some people have towards the use
of authentic malts. It was done, obviously, tongue-in-cheek and I realise
that it was potentially offensive and therefore inappropriate.

I enjoyed the Fixs' book, and don't dislike them as people just because I
object to their essentialism in terms of brewing ingredients.

Perhaps there is also an element of cultural specificity in this issue. I'm
Australian, and it's no mere cliche that we have a dry, sarcastic sense of
humour some of the time. If any of my fellow Australians took offense to my
comments, for example, I'd be very surprised.

Anyway, all of that aside, I genuinely apologize. But don't let it distract
you from my point of discussion: What is everyone's experiences with
"authentic" vs. local ingredients?

Stuart Grant



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Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 11:59:38 +1000
From: Grant Family <grants at netspace.net.au>
Subject: re: kid and beer

G'day

Thought I'd finally add in my bit for this thread... In response to Thomas'
"what would be the legal consequences for U.S. citizens if they let their kids
try [alcohol]?"

I assume this law is similar in the US (I'm in Australia), but it is perfectly
acceptable for minors to consume alcohol in their own home with parental 
assent.
The matter is entirely different if they are consuming it at someone else's
private residence (eg. at a party) - which is illegal - but I don't think
anyone would get into trouble for giving their own kids alcohol (in moderation)
in their own home.

As for my experiences... My parents have always drunk alcohol (red wine, almost
exclusively) and in moderation. But I was (for quite a few years) your average
teenage/college social-alcoholic. Like most people my age, I couldn't party
without it.

Why? When I was given ideal role-models (and if I asked for a sip - which I
rarely did - would have been given one), why did I rebel? I think the answer is
that it was not talked about. My parents didn't avoid talking about alcohol,
but they didn't do a "the birds and the bees" talk equivalent for alcohol.

I think you're all correct in saying that repression is not the answer, but I
think it is more than that. Whatever the opposite of repression is - perhaps
expression - is what is required, I would suggest. If you're a parent, what 
they
say is true, you have to talk openly about the effects of alcohol so that
it doesn't become that intriguing mystery substance...

Stuart Grant
Hobart, Tasmania, Australia



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