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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Malt Nasty (tolmh)
  re: kids and beer ("James Fitzell")
  sweden/stockholm ("Haborak, Kevin")
  State Run Liquor/Colour Software/Taxation & S.G. (Travis Dahl KE4VYZ)
  No Spam and beer colture (Jim Bermingham)
  Re: Kids and beer (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Counterflow Chilling and Break (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Anheuser world select ("Tom & Dana Karnowski")
  Re:  Sweden (Thomas Rohner)
  RE: colour swatches ("Drew Avis")
  the Malt Nazi says No Beer For You, Stuart! ("Steve Dale-Johnson")
  Rodenbach Grand Cru ("Deutsch, Stephen D")
  Fridge repair (BrewInfo)
  Paulaner Brewery (BrewInfo)
  Price of Kegging Equipment ("Chip Stewart")
  Orange County Fair, Belgian Dubbel (Alan Fossen)
  Jamelski beer bottles (ensmingr)


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Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 14:33:45 +1000
From: tolmh at tpg.com.au
Subject: Malt Nasty

>If any of my fellow Australians took offense to my
>comments, for example, I'd be very surprised.

"Um, excuse me, I - I think you forgot to crack my malt."
"Cracked, two dollars extra."
"Two dollars? But everyone in front of me got free cracking."
"You want cracked?"
"Yes, please."
"Three dollars!"
"What?"
"NO MALT FOR YOU!"

Matt in Canberra, Australia


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Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 15:58:08 +1000
From: "James Fitzell" <JFitzell at tecbuild.com.au>
Subject: re: kids and beer

Howdy,

First post for me but I thought I'd just second Stuart on his comment
about the Australian laws on drinking.  Again, these laws vary from
state to state, however they are all fairly similar.  In New South Wales
it is legal for the parent/guardian to serve alcohol on private
property.  In Victoria it is legal for a child to be served alcohol by
any adult (doesn't need to be the parent/guardian) while on private
property.  On public property it is illegal to give a minor alcohol
whether there are adults present or not.  (The drinking age here is 18
by the way).

Now on to my experiences with alcohol.  Both of my parents drink
regularly, almost exclusively red wine.  From early teens I would often
have a glass of wine with dinner and have always had a healthy respect
for what alcohol can, and can't, do.  That said I still went through a
period in late teens where I would drink to excess.  The reason for this
was nothing to do with whether I understood the risks of alcohol or not,
it's simply a matter of "fun"... at the time it was fun, it made me feel
good.  Now I no longer drink to excess for many reasons.  I am more
concious of maintaining my health, I no longer like feeling out of
control, and I don't like waking up with a hangover.  All of these
reasons have nothing to do with "understanding alcohol" and everything
to do with "growing up".  I think it's healthy to let a child grow up
understanding about alcohol and its risks and that to pretend alcohol
doesn't exist is likely to cause a child undue interest in alcohol,
however there's nothing you can do about the fact that teenagers can be
stupid.

On a separate note, and in Stuart's defense, we in Australia use the
word Nazi as a humourous description (just like in Seinfeld).  It never
occurred to me that people might take offense to his use of the word, I
certainly didn't.  In hindsight it is obvious that it could have caused
offense, however I am sure Stuart never meant it to.

And finally, I'm only just getting into homebrewing and as such have no
brewery name.  But for the other questions over the weeks I am 25 years
old and drink roughly 4-5 nights a week.  On these occasions I would
average 1 - 2 long necks, generally with dinner.

Well... what a blurb for my first post :)

James Fitzell
Sydney, NSW, Australia


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Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 05:00:21 -0700
From: "Haborak, Kevin" <KHaborak at golder.com>
Subject: sweden/stockholm

My experiences over in Stockholm are more along the lines of Pete's.  Only I
went there when in college so I was hagning out with the people stocking up
on alcohol.  When I first got over there many of the girls I met warned me
not to try to keep up with my Swedish counterparts becasue "Swedish guys are
known for getting so drunk they fall on their face".  I did take razzing
from some of the guys over being a "party-breaker" when I wasn't getting as
hammered as them, but it always semmed to work out better with the ladies
(although that's a topic for another board).  So I guess what I'm saying is
that I don't think the 'european' attitude makes it that far north.

Kevin


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Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 08:20:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Travis Dahl KE4VYZ <dahlt at umich.edu>
Subject: State Run Liquor/Colour Software/Taxation & S.G.

   I find it interesting that people seem to be claiming that the state
run liquor stores in Sweden are unique to the area and a part of the problem.
There are actually several states where any hard liquor has to be sold
through the state run liquor stores (Washington, and New Hampshire come to
mind).  And the ones in Wshington State practically keep bankers hours.
Are their more alcoholics and binge drinkers per capita in Seattle tthan
in Portland?
   On the subject of color software, I think that anyone who believes that
it is even meant to give an exact color needs to have their head examined.
First off, I know that there is a lot of variation between different
computer monitors (my laptop and my desktop monitors display the same
image with different hues, etc.)  Second, brewing practices (did you
scorch anything, etc.) can alter that color somewhat.  Personally, I like
the color feature in promash because it gives me rough idea of where the
colors will end up.  Anything beyond that, would probably not be worth it.
   Someone also mentioned the fact that English bitters are low in gravity
because of taxation.  This was certainly true initially, but since those
taxes went into effect well ove a hundred years ago, I suspect that even
if they were removed, the S.G. would not go up significantly.  Most
traditions had an initial reason, but quite often the tradition will
remain even when the cause for it is gone.  (One example I often hear
sited is the prevalence of coffee drinking in the U.S. vs. tea.)
   Anyway, thats enough rambling for me today.

 -Travis
[1.8, 98.3] Apparent Rennerian




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Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 20:23:07 -0500
From: Jim Bermingham <JBHAM6843 at netscape.net>
Subject: No Spam and beer colture

Bill No Spam stated in his post that while the French Canadian's 
lifestyle was to drink wine, usually with food, instead of beer, we  
Americans, drank beer.  Usually by itself, and with the intent to get 
drunk.  I'm not sure where No Spam is from and what studies he has 
either read or undertaken himself on this subject but I have to strongly 
disagree with him on this.  Although I'm from Texas I have been forced 
to leave this great state a time or two and have been in quite a few 
bars here in the U.S. and elsewhere, including Canada.  In the larger 
cities in Texas they have bars.  These bars are normally located in 
restaurants or dance halls.  While there are always those who drink to 
excess and leave these establishments drunk, they certainly are not the 
majority.  In the smaller towns in Texas, where I live, we don't have 
bars.  We have Beer Joints.  Now as the name indicates, these fine 
establishments serve beer, beer and beer.  You might be able to get a 
coke, but you better not ask for a wine or a mixed drink.  You ask for a 
Bud, a Miller or a Coors.  in the bigger joints they might even have 
Lone Star.  Also in the bigger places you might be able to get a 
hamburger, but don't count on it.  Even in these places, where I spent 
my youth, very few people go there to drink to get drunk.  As I said I 
don't know where No Spam is from, if he is a college student, his age, 
or anything else about him, but the statement about  Americans usually 
drinking beer just to get drunk is , in my opinion wrong,

Jim Bermingham
Millsap, TX




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Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 09:40:29 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Kids and beer

"David Hagan" <david at falstaffenterprises.com>

>As a former publican in the state of Texas I can tell you that here 
>it is perfectly legal for parents to give their children alcohol. 
>The bartender or server has to actually serve the drink to the 
>parent, and the parent has to give the drink to the child. The legal 
>age to drink in Texas 21.

This sensible attitude is true in Wisconsin, I understand (my sister 
lives there and we visit often).  But here in Michigan, it 
constitutes child abuse, even in your own home, and you could be 
prosecuted!

Fortunately, I think the statute of limitations has expired in my case.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 10:18:08 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Counterflow Chilling and Break

"Caryl Hornberger Slone" <chornberger10 at comcast.net> writes from Ft. Wayne, IN

>I'm not sure exactly which break I'm talking about; hot or cold - but after
>the boil finishes, its all the wispy white suspended proteins (reminds me of
>miso soup).

That's hot break, and it sounds like you have your mash chemistry 
going right if you get good like that.

Cold break forms when the wort is chilled.

>I'm wondering how people who use counterflow chillers remove
>this material, since it only seems to really precipitate out as the wort
>cools.

I have a false bottom in my boiler and use whole hops, which act as a 
filter for both the hot and cold break.  I get pretty clear wort in 
the fermenter and very little sediment.  There are those who claim 
benefits to leaving cold break in the fermenter, at least for the 
first 24 hours (nutrients and CO2 nucleation sites), but I haven't 
had any problems.

>I use an immersion chiller (for now) and am able to chill and then siphon
>the wort off after all this stuff has settled.  A few times, I've been
>rather sloppy and gotten a large amount of it into the fermentor.  It
>settled out, and I just had less beer than usual.

Before I had the false bottom, I'd whirlpool the hot wort and use a 
counter-flow chiller.  When the pile of trub in the middle collapsed 
and started entering the chiller, I'd run the truby wort into a 
separate container.  Then I stretched an old t-shirt over the neck of 
a one gallon plastic pitcher and filtered this wort.  Then I reboiled 
the filtered wort to sterilize it, cooled it and added it to the 
fermenter.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 10:33:49 -0400
From: "Tom & Dana Karnowski" <karnowsk at esper.com>
Subject: Re: Anheuser world select

Concerning AB World Select, Rodney Reeves asked:

>(Finally to the point)
>Why would they enter the market so late in the game?

AB has over 50% of the American beer market.  I think they have little
opportunities for growth now without cannabalizing themselves (Mich ultra
probably took some drinkers away from bud light, or mich light, for
example).  The next market they can hit is probably the Heinekin crowd.  I
believe SABMiller is targeting that same group with more ads for pilsner
urquell.

What I find more interesting is "Pacific Ridge" (I think?), which is an AB
pale ale.  I saw it on their web site and it said they only sell it in
Western states. Has anyone tried it?

>Would you support a company that has little commitment to brewing a
>quality product even if they did have one great brew?

I would like to try AB World Select but I would not become a regular buyer
of it.  I don't buy any commercial beers regularly except our local brewpub
beers, because I have plenty of homebrew.

AB is committed to making money and they are doing it by making beer that
people want to drink, or convincing people that they want to drink AB beer.

One classic example of this is Mich Ultra.  IT has 1.8 carbs.  I looked on a
can of Miller Lite and yes, it has more carbs.  0.5 g to be precise (it has
2.3 carbs).  What a joke.  Think of how much money AB has spent on their
"low carb" beer.  Miller Lite should re-invent themselves as a low-carb beer
too.  (I haven't tasted the two side-by-side but I truly doubt that Mich
Ultra tastes much better than Miller Lite.)  I bet if they did that, Mich
Ultra would say they have 1/4 less carbs than Miller Lite.

If everyone stopped drinking Bud and wanted Sierra Nevada Pale Ale instead,
you better believe AB would drop Bud like a hot potato and start making pale
ale (and I bet it would be tasty, too). Or selling Pacific Ridge more.

REgarding macrobrewing sleaze and BS, I recommend that everyone read "Beer
Blast" by Phillip Van Munching.  HE isn't a great writer and he is biased
(his family imported Heinekin) but its an interesting read about
macrobrewing ad tactics.  A couple of other interesting books I read in this
same vein are "Under the Influence" and "Citizen Coors". The last one is the
best written of the group.









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Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 19:05:19 +0200
From: Thomas Rohner <t.rohner at bluewin.ch>
Subject: Re:  Sweden

Hi Pete
when i was there in 2001, i found beers up to 3.5 ABV in every
supermarket.(maybe that's not the stuff for binge drinking)
If you want something stronger you have to go to the "System-Bolaget".
I've been there a couple of times(the fridge in the motorhome wasn't
that large) during weekdays. It wasn't crammed then. But i heard from
my cusine, that i shouldn't go there before weekends or even worse
before holydays.

Thomas



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Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:42:26 -0400
From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: colour swatches

Big Brained Brian in Winnipeg suggests that on-screen colour swatches in
brew software are not accurate, and proposes a database of beer photos would
be better.

This is probably the case, BBB, but it is still not a perfect solution.
There are distinct variations between digital cameras in terms of colour
quality, differences between monitors and graphics cards - and this is
assuming the SRM/EBC prediction for the recipe is close!  Remember the
prediction is based on a formula which, while serviceable, is certainly not
perfect.

For example, I've posted here before regarding the Morey formula (used AFAIK
in most software) for predicting SRM.  This formula does not account for
brewhouse efficiency!  Plug a recipe into your favourite software, and set
the efficiency to 10%.  All the specs *except* colour will change, which, as
we both know, is ridiculous.  You should get much less colour - though how
much less I'm not sure. (StrangeBrew has a setting which lets you apply
efficiency to your colour prediction, but some brewers have reported
problems with it, and I plan to tweak it further in the next release.)

But, assuming your SRM is accurate, your digital camera is perfect, and your
monitor and graphics card are calibrated to some brew software standard -
then your observation that there are many variations in the hue of a beer
(two 12 SRM beers might still vary considerably in colour) still holds true.
Your algorithm would have to predict which of the dozens or hundreds of 12
SRM photos you have would match the recipe.

I'm not saying that this isn't an astoundingly original idea!  On the
contrary, it is quite breathtaking.  I just don't know that it doesn't solve
more problems than it creates.  When it comes to the colour swatch, I
encourage brewers to think of it like the other specifications predicted by
their software - a sketch or fuzzy crystal ball picture rather than a
"photograph" of what their beer is going to turn out like.

Cheers!
Drew Avis, Ottawa, Ontario
http://www.strangebrew.ca


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Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 10:59:07 -0700
From: "Steve Dale-Johnson" <sdalejohnson at hotmail.com>
Subject: the Malt Nazi says No Beer For You, Stuart!


Stuart Grant, the HBD's very own Tasmanian Devil, is deeply sorry to have 
offended those of us who fancy ourselves Malt Nazis.  ("No Beer For You!  
Out of my brewhouse!!")

With all due respect to the late Dr. George Fix, the guy knew his beer and 
was actually on to something.  I have read and reread the Marzen/O'fest book 
and applied the same principles to brewing other beers, and it really does 
have an impact.

I know that Aussie was founded with a culture that said "Hey, p!ss on 
Normal", but the beer you get using the local will be the equivalent of the 
"pilsners" brewed commercially here in Canada.  Nice try, but not even 
close.

IIRC, you were asking about an O'fest, which may be less sensitive to malt 
selection than my favourites, which are a Czech style Pilsener and a 
Dortmunder/export.   There is a big part of both of these beers missing when 
you try to do them with Canadian, English or American 2 row malts.   To a 
lesser extent, I still have not captured the full essence as I do not (yet) 
decoct and have been doing simple single infusion mashes.  Using a european 
pils malt in these, however, does make the biggest difference, qualified by 
the fact that I am already lagering the lagers with the style-appropriate 
yeast, which is the first big step.  If you're not doing that, I personally 
wouldn't bother with the authentic malt either, and I certainly would not 
purport to be brewing any authentic style.     Don't let that stop you from 
experimenting with what _you_ like though, b/c that's what makes the hobby 
so fun.

Proud to be a malt nazi, with tongue firmly in cheek,



Steve Dale-Johnson
Brewing at (1918 miles, 298 degrees) Rennerian
Delta (Vancouver), BC, Canada.



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Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:14:02 -0500
From: "Deutsch, Stephen D" <Stephen.Deutsch at landsend.com>
Subject: Rodenbach Grand Cru

I created a typical Belgian Strong Ale and I dropped a quarter bottle of
Rodenbach Grand Cru into it. Two months later I tested it and it's very
much like Rodenbach, but more sour and green.

I'll let it sit a while longer, taste it again, and maybe add some fruit
if it's too sour.

Stephen Deutsch, OCP 
Sr Database Administrator 
Lands' End, Inc. 
(608)935-4935 
Visit our web site at http://www.landsend.com/ 


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Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:51:49 -0500 (CDT)
From: brewinfo at xnet.com (BrewInfo)
Subject: Fridge repair

One of my beer fridges is on the fritz.  I bought it new about 10 years
ago, but it's a smaller one than a standard kitchen fridge (about 5
feet tall) and I think I paid something like $175 for it.  A week ago
or so, I happened to be next to it when I heard it go "click, hum, clack."
I looked inside and the frost in the freezer had melted and had made a
1/2" puddle in the bottom of the fridge.  I turned the thermostat to
"off," cleaned up all the water, and left it for a day.  When I turned
it back on, it went "click, hum, hum, hum, clack."  Tried again the
next day.  Same.

There used to be a refrigeration expert on the HBD... are you still here?

What are the chances that repairing this are going to be cheaper than
just getting a new (or used) fridge?  Buying a used fridge is surely
cheaper, but certainly increases the likelyhood that I'll have the same
problem as I have now again, and much sooner than I'd like.  Right?

Thanks.

Al.

Al Korzonas
http://www.brewinfo.com


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Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 14:15:52 -0500 (CDT)
From: brewinfo at xnet.com (BrewInfo)
Subject: Paulaner Brewery

S asks about tours at the Paulaner Brewery in Munich.

You should pick up a book called "The Camra Guide to Munich and
Bavaria."  It has all the phone numbers, addresses and a bunch
of other great information.  Note that when I was there last
(1997?) Paulaner not only had their main brewery, but they also
had a brewpub (Hausbrauerei).  I poked around and found the
brewmaster and he gave me a tour.  Gleaming equipment.  They
used (gasp!) open fermenters!  However, because the fermenters
were in the same room as the serving area, they had a glass
box built around them (go figure!).  In Belgium, I wouldn't
be surprised to see open fermenters at each table ;^).  Just
kidding.

Get the book if it's still in print.  Try the CAMRA website
www.camra.uk.org.  Actually, I just looked briefly and didn't
see it.  Try to find it used online.

Al.

Al Korzonas
Homer Glen, IL
http://www.brewinfo.com



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Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 16:18:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Chip Stewart" <Charles at thestewarts.com>
Subject: Price of Kegging Equipment

Don't forget e-Bay as a source for equipment.  I've seen CO2 tanks go for less
than half of what you quoted!  I just saw two 2.5 lb. tanks go for $24.99. 
That's where I've picked up several brewing items, including at $19 Omega
digital temperature controller.

Chip Stewart
Charles at TheStewarts.com
http://Charles.TheStewarts.com

Support anti-Spam legislation.
Join the fight http://www.cauce.org


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Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 18:11:37 -0700
From: Alan Fossen <brewer at kanpai.net>
Subject: Orange County Fair, Belgian Dubbel

I did well at the Orange County (CA) fair this year with my Belgium Dubbel
so here's the recipe.
Dubbel #4
Water: My tap water is quite hard. I use about 1/3 boiled and settled
tap water and the rest RO. 7 gal mash-in to get 120f, 14 gal sparge
19 lb. Belgian Pilsner (DWC)
5 lb. German Pilsner
2 lb. Belgian Munich
1 lb. Belgian aromatic
2 lb. Wheat malt
1 lb. Belgian Special B
1 lb. Belgian CaraVienne
1 lb. Belgian CaraMunich
30 min  at 120f,60 min  at 140f (bad thermometer, I wanted 150)
30 min  at 150f, mashout
Boil:120 min, yielded 13 gal.
Hops: All loose, except Saaz: pellets
 .5 oz. Cascade (6% AA, 60 min.) 
 .3 oz. Fuggles (4.75% AA, 60 min.)
 .5 oz. Kent Goldings (5% AA, 60 min.)
 .5 oz. Hallertauer (1.7% AA, 45 min.)
 .3 oz. Fuggles (4.75% AA, 30 min.)
 .5 oz. Kent Goldings (5% AA, 30 min.)
 .5 oz. Saaz (3.75% AA, 15 min.)
White Labs Trappist Ale WLP500 stepped 3 times,
32 oz at 55 points, 50 oz at 60 points and 45 at 70 points.
Primary fermentation temperature at 68f for four weeks.
Prime (part of the batch (~6gal.)) with 76 oz of 1.100 wort (mashed Pils)
SG went from 1.055 down to 1.013 at 15 days!
Tastes great. Smells of sweet banana, toffee and green apples.
http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/recipator/recipator?group=21&item=3695

This is the fourth trappist type I've tried. It took some hot days in 2001
to really finish conditioning on these bottles (popped a few).  I usually
keg, but this beer demands bottle conditioning and aging.  Brewed 10-7-00.

Alan, Silverado CA




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Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 00:02:40 -0400
From: ensmingr at twcny.rr.com
Subject: Jamelski beer bottles

A local news item on Ryan Brown (Wilkes-Barre, PA) who recently
purchased 13,000 beer bottles.

Cheerio!
Peter A. Ensminger
Syracuse, NY
- ----------

Syracuse Post Standard: http://www.syracuse.com/
July 23, 2003

Jamelske Bottles Sold
Bidder wins kidnapper's collection for $500 on eBay
By Mike Fish

When Ryan Brown recently purchased a collection of 13,000 beer
bottles on eBay, the Pennsylvania teacher had no clue about its
notoriety.

But last week, when he was visiting the Syracuse area, Brown
picked up a copy of The Post-Standard and read front-page stories
about John Jamelske, who was sentenced to 18 years to life in
state prison for kidnapping five girls and women whom he held as
sex slaves in a backyard, underground bunker in DeWitt.

That's when Brown realized that the bottles he was buying came
from a 68-year-old serial predator who, from the late 1980s until
late last year, whisked his victims off the streets of Syracuse
and stashed them, one by one, in his concrete cocoon.

"I sort of got this (uneasy) gut feeling," said Brown.

"We were both really shocked," said Monica Lewis, his girlfriend.

But Brown, a high school English teacher from the Wilkes-Barre
area who placed the winning bid of $500 in the Internet auction,
decided to go through with the purchase. Terms of Jamelske's plea
bargain call for him to liquidate his assets - including the beer
bottles - and distribute the proceeds among his five victims.

Tuesday morning, Brown and half a dozen friends spent three and a
half hours carrying thousands of bottles from Jamelske's basement
on 7070 Highbridge Road to a U-Haul truck backed into Jamelske's
driveway.

Tom Krapf, a friend of Brown's from Delaware, helped out.

"It's not that spooky," Krapf said. "To the best of everyone's
knowledge, no one died in there, so that takes a bit of the
spookiness out of it."

Brown, 24, who started collecting beer bottles a few years ago,
said Jamelske's collection includes beer bottles from all over
the world. Brown, though, said he does not know if any of them
are particularly valuable.

"Overall, for the money I paid for them, I think it was pretty
much a steal," he said.

Brown said he had a couple thousand bottles in his collection
before taking in Tuesday's haul. He will take the collection back
to Pennsylvania and recycle some and keep the rest.

Even though his new bottles might fetch a fancy price on the open
market because of the notoriety, Brown said he does not intend to
sell any of them. In fact, he said he does not know how much the
collection is really worth.

"It's hard to put (a value) on things you collect," he said.

When Brown gets back to Pennsylvania and finishes unloading the
collection there, he'll have one more thing on his list to do. 

"I'll be saying a little prayer" in honor of Jamelske's victims,
he said.

- -----



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---