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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  re: Re: No Spam and beer culture ("-S")
  re:  State Run Liquor/Colour Software/Taxation & S.G. ("-S")
  interesting spam (Jeremy Bergsman)
  RE: Beer Culture in Scandinavia (Jonathan Royce)
  CO2 tanks on Ebay? ("Spencer W. Thomas")
  Betadine (Michael Hartsock)
  Home Grain Roasting with Popper (Alexandre Enkerli)
  Ukrainian beer scene (Robert Marshall)
  First All Grain Batch (croll01)
  Storing Star San solution in CF Chiller (Timothy Burkhart)
  american lager dry malt question (jOsh tAusCheK)


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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 11:08:42 -0400
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: re: Re: No Spam and beer culture

Bill NoSpamWible posts ...

<<
The previous poster stated that Canada doesn't have a
problem with binge drinking on their college campuses.
First, I'm not sure that's true.  He also stated
(incorrectly) that England has a problem with binge
drinking, but doesn't have heavy taxes or any kind
of prohibition.  He obviously doesn't know much about
the UK.
>>

I those comments were from two different posters- Alexandre and myself and I
think Bill has misinterpreted both.   Canadian students aren't getting a
general pass as a model of alc use, but Alexandre noted that Quebec college
students weren't so avid about drinking to excess as Indiana students.
Extrapolate at your own risk Bill.

I wrote that Britain has about 3X the beer tax as a typical US state,
(30-some pence a pint).  My point was NOT that UK beer tax was low (it's
not), but that it is not intended to curb drinking in trends that correspond
with prohibitionist sentiment.   It's been relatively constant aside from
wartime increases.   In contrast some Scandi countries (you can find details
on the web) have attempted to impose prohibitive alc taxes (tho the EU is
making such policies difficult).    One had a 30 year long prohibition
period in the early 20th century.

The UK seems to have avoided much of the neo-prohibition (and original
prohibition) movement sentiment.  (Canada had it's own prohibition in the
early 20th century btw. ).   I can see on the web that neo-prohibitionist
occurs in the US and to some extent in Australia.   Why not the UK ?

 -S




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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 11:13:00 -0400
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: re:  State Run Liquor/Colour Software/Taxation & S.G.

Travis writes ....

 <<
   I find it interesting that people seem to be claiming that the state
run liquor stores in Sweden are unique to the area and a part of the
problem.
There are actually several states where any hard liquor has to be sold
through the state run liquor stores (Washington, and New Hampshire come to
mind).  And the ones in Washington State practically keep bankers hours.
>>

 .I believe that 17 states have all liquor distributed by the state!   Some
like Ohio permit private stores to retail the liquor, but the distribution
is limited in a most ridiculous manner by the state.

> Someone also mentioned the fact that English bitters are low in gravity
> because of taxation.  This was certainly true initially, but since those
> taxes went into effect well ove a hundred years ago, I suspect that even
> if they were removed, the S.G. would not go up significantly.

Taxes ......  they have completely shaped the face of beverage alcohol.

The English taxation of beer dates to the crusades, when a 'Saladin Tithe'
was imposed in 1188 to pay for the crusades (let's not give our US
politicians any ideas).      It's said that in 1694 London gin was cheaper
than beer due to taxation.  Originally malt was taxed on England and
Ireland - this is the reason Guinness used unmalted roast barley.   It also
explains the use of sugar imports from the West Indies in ales.   Later in
the mid 1800 a hops tax was imposed too.    At some point (when?) the
English taxed potential alcohol of the wort by a rather obtuse formula.
In most of the US this isn't the case.    I suspect the strength tax
explains why most non-mega brews in the US tend to run around 13-13.5P and
vs a plethora of UK ales at or under 11P.    IPAs dropped to  more drinkable
SG(from up around 17-18P as I recall) probably due to marketing reasons, but
dropped a bit further due to taxation.

Taxes have virtually created both of the planet's great whisk[e]y
traditions.  Britains beer tax imposed on Scotland circa 1745 and Alexander
Hamilton's 1791 whiskey tax ... but that's another forum.

 -S









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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 08:34:13 -0400
From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremy at bergsman.org>
Subject: interesting spam

OK, perhaps this is not appropriate, but I think it may be of interest. 
This morning I received an email from someone I didn't know with the subject
"New Page 3.htm".  At this point these two criteria usually mean I delete
without even looking at it, but I opened it due to a slip of the finger. 
Before I could delete it my eye caught the word "keg" so I figured maybe it
was to me.  Here is what it said:

> Irene Morris
> Sales Manager
> morris at hostex.com
> 
> my stout into the new keg and everything is 
> well and good.
> 
> That night as I lay in bed, my mind wanders. I begin to wonder exactly how 
> much of the amber I lost in all the times I hooked up empty kegs to the 
> other side of the line. I wonder. Hmmmmmm. Should I look or leave well 
> enough alone? Hmmmmm.
> 
> The next morning, before work, I make up my mind. I'm going to open up the 
> amber's keg and look. I do so and, holy cow, 

Then there is a MIME attachment which I'm guessing is a virus or something. 
The interesting thing about this is that everything after the first 3 lines
is from a post to the HBD on Jan 31.  Is this the new spam--robots
harvesting/creating material to appeal to small numbers of recipients?  I
bet the subject line is from some hbd archive or mirror and the next one
will be more on target.  Perhaps the author of that bit could sue for
copyright infringment.

Fight spam!
- -- 
Jeremy Bergsman
jeremy at bergsman.org
http://www.bergsman.org/jeremy


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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 05:56:50 -0700
From: Jonathan Royce <jonathan at woodburybrewingco.com>
Subject: RE: Beer Culture in Scandinavia

Just catching up after a short vacation and I wanted to comment on some of the 
recent posts concerning Scandinavia (particularly w.r.t. Sweden) and the 
drinking habits there:

In #4304, David Radwin pointed out the high rate of taxation on alcohol in 
Sweden. While his tax rate tables are correct, I believe his relative ranking 
of the Scandinavian countries may be off by one: as I understand it, Norway's 
tax is even higher, which is why Norwegians make frequent trips to border 
cities like Stromstad to buy alcohol, tobacco, groceries and anything else that 
they can fit in their vehicles. 

In #4305, Steve Alexander accused me of "high-jacking the topic [of beer 
culture and US adolescents]". (I stand guilty as charged, but in the roughly 2 
years that I've been reading HBD I hadn't noticed that there was a strict 
policy of topic adherance.) In any case, my point was simply to expand upon the 
reference to 3rd century annual Nordic festivals with some information about 
the current situation in order to avoid any confusion that might link the two. 
I apologize if Steve felt it was irrelevant to his post.

However, it was great that Steve provided the original reference to Engs' 
thesis in his reply, although I wish that he had paraphrased her work a bit 
because the author provides several theories on the causes of binge drinking 
episodes in Northern Europe, where grain-based alcohol was the drink of choice: 

"Ales and beers were perishable and needed to be quickly consumed, there were 
often lean years without much available alcohol, limited supplies were consumed 
by the elite, and the long dark nasty winters in cramped quarters may have 
fostered depression and stress resulting in heavy drinking when alcohol was 
available. With limited alcohol a "feast or famine" situation may have occurred 
leading to sporadic bouts of heavy drinking whenever any alcohol was 
obtainable." (This is in contrast to Mediterranean cultures where wine was the 
beverage of choice and available year-round due to its ability to be stored for 
extended periods.) 

 -S also provided some information about binge-drinking rates (binge drinking 
episodes as a percentage of all drinking occasions per year) that indicate that 
Sweden is #2 behind the UK. Of course, this statistic is somewhat biased, since 
the total number of drinking occasions per year is not cited. (If I binge drink 
once a year and that is the only occasion that I drink during the annum, then 
my rate would be 100%, whereas if I binge drink the same amount but consume 
alcohol in moderation daily, I'm at less than 1%. ) That said and without 
additional data, the conclusion that "Obviously there is a considerably more 
binge drinking in far N.Euro as opposed to Italy, Germany & France." is valid 
only if pre-conditioned by the phrase "as a percentage". (One should also note 
that the study defines binge drinking as "5 or more standard drinks in a single 
occasion", a definition which Steve "wouldn't agree...represents binge 
drinking.") In my experience, most Swedes are quite aware of their alcohol 
consumption rates and limit its use to weekends and vacations, which seriously 
brings into question this particular study's ranking of binge drinking.

Two more points from Steve's post. The first is the "Swedish/Finnish ferry 
trips", and again I must disagree with Steve. In the ferry trips that I've been 
on, David Radwin's description of "binge buying" is much closer to the reality. 
The second is his comment that "Taxation and control of alcohol in 
Scandanavia...have clear prohibitionist overtones". Of course, anyone who's 
spent significant time in Scandinavia knows that *EVERYTHING* is (relatively) 
highly taxed, including clothing, income and gasoline. I'm not convinced that 
the tax on alcohol is as much a reflection of a "prohibitionist" attitude as it 
is one of a socialist economy which views alcohol as a luxury, rather than an 
evil. 

Finally, in #4306, Pete Calinski recounted a tale about Systembolaget and how 
it closes early on Friday afternoons, thus resulting in binge buying which he 
concludes "encourages excessive binge drinking". 

Well, Pete, you'll be happy to know that whoever oversees Systembolaget must 
have felt the same way, because over the past three years or so the stores have 
begun opening on Saturdays. They also did away with the "order at the counter" 
system and went to a self-service format with check-outs, similar to a grocery 
store. Of course, now people are able to browse the store, rather than purchase 
what's on their list, and most Swedes I've spoken with feel that this has 
increased how much they purchase since they can impulse shop, but that's 
another topic...

Happy brewing,
Jonathan
Woodbury Brewing Co.
www.woodburybrewingco.com


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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 10:22:15 -0400
From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <spencer at umich.edu>
Subject: CO2 tanks on Ebay?

Chip writes:

>Don't forget e-Bay as a source for equipment.  I've seen CO2 tanks go for less
>than half of what you quoted!  I just saw two 2.5 lb. tanks go for $24.99. 
>
But watch out for the shipping charge!  The "tare weight" on my 5lb tank 
is 11+lbs.  If you end up shipping that cross country, even UPS ground 
rate, you'll add significantly to the cost of the tank.

=Spencer



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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 07:31:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com>
Subject: Betadine

Does anyone know if diluted betadine solution can be
safely used as a sanitizer?  The digest archives
reveals many questions about this, but no answers. 
Anyone with any expertise or experience to this
effect?

Michael 
Columbia, MO


=====
"May those who love us, love us.
And those that don't love us,
May God turn their hearts.
And if he doesn't turn their hearts,
may he turn their ankles
So we'll know them
by their limping."



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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 02:56:35 -0400
From: Alexandre Enkerli <aenkerli at indiana.edu>
Subject: Home Grain Roasting with Popper

Quick query, this time.
Did anyone try roasting grain with a popcorn popper? It works with 
green coffee beans (Maillard reaction and all) so it might work with 
grain, if the temperatures are appropriate.

Alex (so, where's the Rennerian calculator now?)



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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 10:01:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Robert Marshall <robertjm at hockeyhockeyhockey.com>
Subject: Ukrainian beer scene

The Kiev Post has ran some articles on the commercial
beer scene in Ukraine recently, and figured I would
drop a note to the list for those interested.

UKRAINIAN BEER: IT TASTES GREAT AND IT'S MORE
FULFILLING Quality control and increased varieties
lead to a boom in sales
http://www.kyivpost.com/dayandnight/feature/17239/

BEST OF BEER PARLORS (brewpubs)
http://www.kyivpost.com/dayandnight/bestkyiv/17236/

HOW TO GET MORE OUT OF YOUR BEER
There's more to beer than just drinking it...
http://www.kyivpost.com/dayandnight/toftw/17235/

BOOD-MO!! (cheers!)

Robert


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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 19:04:36 +0000
From: croll01 at comcast.net
Subject: First All Grain Batch

Hi,

I have been lurking here for some time but this is my first post, so please 
bear with me.  I made my first attempt at an all grain batch this past weekend, 
and I think I may have rather botched the job.  As of this morning there is 
absolutely no activity in the fermenter.  At the risk of making this an overly 
long post I will describe my recipe and process, and perhaps someone here may 
offer some suggestions regarding what I might do to salvage this batch, or next 
time to achieve better results.  

Recipe: German Alt

4 lbs 2 Row Pale Malt
4 lbs Vienna Malt
1 lb Wheat


1 oz Spalt Bittering
 .5 oz Spalt Flavor 
 .25 oz Spalt Aroma

Process:

Let me begin with a caveat that I know I did several things wrong or halfway or 
not at all.  I was approaching this batch as more of a test run for my 
equipment and as a means of getting a feel for how all grain brewing works 
rather than as an attempt at a perfect beer.  But I digress...

Heated Strike water to 175, doughed in with all the grain, added a little cool 
water to bring mash temp to 154, mashed for 1 hr.  Ending temp was a little low 
at 146.  I did not check the mash pH or water chemistry, I was hoping this 
would sort of take care of itself, nor did I check for starch conversion.  My 
guess is this is where I went wrong.  To be honest I know nothing about the 
water chemistry here in Richmond, VA (actually south of Richmond, in 
Chesterfield County).  Perhaps there is another brewer from my area on the list 
who may be able to provide some information regarding water chemistry for this 
area.

In any case I heated the Sparge water to 175, recirculated the mash a half 
gallon at a time (no fancy RIMS here), lautered, and drew off the wort into the 
boil kettle.

I boiled for 1 hour, with three hop additions, one at the beginning of boil, a 
second at 30 minutes into the boil, and a third 55 minutes into the boil.  I 
then hooked up my counterflow chiller and drew off the wort into the 
fermenter.  A couple things to note, I did _not_ see coagulated protein, but 
there was trub at the bottom of the boil kettle, I am not sure if it was just 
hops or hot break as well.  It looked like a little too much junk to just be 
hops, but I am not sure, never having seen the process before.  I let the wort 
fall from the outlet of the chiller to the fermenter so it should have been at 
least somewhat aerated.  The wort was properly cooled when it exited the 
chiller, so I pitched the liquid yeast, covered, and put the fermenter in the 
old fridge I use for temperature control.  The controller is set to 60 degrees 
and the thermometer I have inside the fridge reads between 56 and 60, 
appropriate for the swing.  The stick-on thermometer on the fermenter reads 
about the same.  

Unfortunately I have seen no bubbles so far from the air lock and when I pulled 
it out of the grommet this morning to check for activity I could see no signs 
of fermentation at all.  No foam whatsoever.  The wort did smell sweet, pretty 
much like my extrzact brews have smelled before they fermented.  I detected no 
infected smell.

Any ideas as far as where my major stumbling blocks might have been?  Would it 
be worth it to try some dry yeast, just to see if it would work, or did I miss 
something somewhere and end up with unfermentable wort?  I apologize for the 
length of this post, but any help would be greatly appreciated, I hope to have a
better time with the next batch.  Private replies are welcome.

Thanks, and keep on brewin,


Mel Croll
Richmond, VA (sorry, don't know my Rennerian Coordinates)




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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 17:57:59 -0700
From: Timothy Burkhart <tmburk at comcast.net>
Subject: Storing Star San solution in CF Chiller

All,

I know this has been addressed but gave up digging in the archives.

Is it ok to store normal strength water/Star San solution insided of 
the copper tubing in my new counter-flow chiller between uses?

I have just purchased and used for the first time. Feeling uptight 
about keeping any nasties out of it between uses.

TIA

Tim Burkhart
New to Portland, OR



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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 22:20:05 -0500
From: jOsh tAusCheK <tauscj55 at vaxa.cis.uwosh.edu>
Subject: american lager dry malt question

a homebrew supply shop i recently found on the internet 
(http://www.williamsbrewing.com/) sells a dry maly called american lager, 
which contains corn.  I Was wondering if anyone else knew of another place 
that sells this kind of product as I never heard of it before.  I also never 
have done all grain or partial mash so i have no experience in producing this 
myself so products like these would be very helpfully to me, the extract 
brewer I still am.  And if there might exist more kinds of malt extracts ?? 
Any information is appreciated.

Josh



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