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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  _Newsweek_ article ("FEINSTEIN")
  Re: Homebrew Digest #434 (June 07, 1990) (Ken Schriner)
  Yay for extraneous material (Chain is useless 'gainst false Cupid)
  Beer Postings and Cassis mead (John Mellby)
  blow off, Sam Smith (RUSSG)
  RE: vanilla beans (Mark Freeman)
  sanitizing fermenter lid (mage!lou)
  Reloders scales (JEEPSRUS)
  Siphoning and Bottle Filling (Paul Bigelow)
  Re: Brewpubs, tastings (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Short postings, Eckhardt's New Book (Jay H.)
  #434, various (florianb)
  haze (Max Newman x6689)
  Joy Index (bowler)
  dry ale, run-offs, tolerance (HOLTSFOR)
  Re: Beer Babble, my 2 cents (Jeff Close)


Send submissions to homebrew%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com
Archives available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Jun 90 08:03:00 EDT
From: "FEINSTEIN" <crf at pine.circa.ufl.edu>
Subject: _Newsweek_ article

Hi there!


Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I read the _Newsweek_ article on 
homebrewing.  While it could have stood some improvement, it wasn't too bad 
either.  Personally, I would have liked to have seen some more emphasis on the 
quality, variety, and challenge of home brewing, as opposed to just 
emphasizing the economy of it.

I was glad to see that some legal history was given, as well as a clear 
statement that home brewing is a fast-growing hobby favored by *responsible* 
people.  

All in all, I think that the article will be good for the hobby's image 
despite a slight tongue-in-cheek attitude.

That attitude ended up amusing me enormously, btw.  All that mention about 
baking one's own bread and smoking chicken breasts.  Now, I *ain't* no yuppie; 
no way!!  But I not only do those things, I cure my own meats (such as corned 
beef and bacon, which has to be smoked as well) and have been known to make my 
own cheese.  What *would* the author have thought?  :-)

Y'know, God help that guy if he's ever assigned to cover an historical re-
enactment group.  I don't think he could cope!  :-)


                         Yours in Carbonation,

                                      Cher 


"God save you from a bad neighbor and from a beginner on the fiddle." --
   Italian proverb
=============================================================================

	Cheryl Feinstein              INTERNET:  CRF at PINE.CIRCA.UFL.EDU
	Univ. of Fla.                 BITNET:  CRF at UFPINE
	Gainesville, FL


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Date:         Thu, 07 Jun 90 07:30:15 CDT
From: Ken Schriner <KS06054 at UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Homebrew Digest #434 (June 07, 1990)

Hats off to Algis Korzonas who took the time to reply to the beginning
homebrewer asking for advice.  I'm sure many thought about replying
but didn't have the time or the courage to expose their brewing techniques
to this list of occassional flamers.  I had a question about the technique
used for sterilizing (not a criticism, just a question.)  Algis mentioned
using hot water for the bleach solution.  I use cold water.  I believe
I remember reading something about an undesirable chemical reaction
if hot water was used.  Is cold OK?  Is hot better?

I think the comments about the beer testings and brewpubs and food
are, in their proper context, comments about the digestor of the Homebrew
Digest, Rob Gardner.  I've not seen his editorial/digesting policy,
but whatever it is, this is a great digest for me.  It both sticks to the
topic (homebrew), and provides eclectic material.  Hats off to Rob.
(I would like to see Rob post something about what criteria he uses to
digest this digest, hopefully some very loose, unofficial criteria.)

Ken Schriner                           BITNet : KS06054 at UAFSYSB
220 ADSB, Computing Services         Internet : KS06054 at UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU
University of Arkansas
Fayetteville, AR   72701                        (501) 575-2905

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Date: Thu, 7 Jun 90 08:08 CDT
From: Chain is useless 'gainst false Cupid <PTGARVIN at aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu>
Subject: Yay for extraneous material

If I'm not interested in something, I hit my return key a few times, and I'm
past it.  My only regret is that my mailer program doesn't have a backpage
function.

I find descriptions of brewpubs interesting (even though Norman doesn't
appear to have one) and wonder if there is a list of brewpubs (with their
critiques) somewhere.


 - Ted, aka Badger on TinyHell
- --
"The death of God left the angels in a strange position."
	--Internal documentation, programmer unknown
ptgarvin at aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu / ptgarvin at uokmax.UUCP | Eris loves you.
in the Society: Padraig Cosfhota o hUlad / Barony of Namron, Ansteorra
Disclaimer:  Fragile.  Contents inflammable.  Do not use near open flame.

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Date: Thu, 7 Jun 90 08:05:16 CDT
From: jmellby at ngstl1.csc.ti.com (John Mellby)
Subject: Beer Postings and Cassis mead

Well, Jay Hersh brought up something I have been wondering about for
some time, which is whether I should be posting some of our beer
tasting results in a digest dedicated to homebrewing.  I had been debating
this with myself, but since I had gotten only postive feedback, albeit only
a little, I continued these postings.  Having spent many hours going through
articles which I really didn't care about I really appreciate the advantages
of a digest which concentrates on one subject.  (I wouldn't call this
censorship as someone else suggested.)  

Of course, the articles in question really were long, although they are
excepts of the full compilation of tasting notes which is now running
at 65K in length.  Ugh!

As to other postings like brewpub reviews and the like, the response seems
to me to be positive, so I guess I and everyone else will continue these
(don't worry, I won't deluge you in these -- its just been a couple of
surprisingly good trips lately).

And now back to the main topic.  Lambics.
One of the first lambics I ever had was Mort Subite Cassis which is a black
currant lambic.  As soon as I find some black currants (not widely available
in Dallas) I would like to try some, as well as some black current mead.
Has anyone tried making such mead?  Are the recipes in Acton and Duncon's
book on mead any good?  

Thanks,
Surviving the American Dream
John R. Mellby                       Texas Instruments
jmellby%ngstl1.ti.com                P.O.Box 660246, MS 3645
                                     Dallas Texas, 75266
(214)517-5370                       (214)343-7585
*****************************************
* "Is this a holdup?"                   *
* "No, this is a scientific experiment" *
*               Back to the Future 3    *
*****************************************

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Date:     Thu, 7 Jun 90 11:22 EST
From: <R_GELINA%UNHH.BITNET at mitvma.mit.edu> (RUSSG)
Subject:  blow off, Sam Smith

Well I was hoping I could ferment a 4 gallon batch in a 5 gallon carboy
with just a water seal (no blow-off), but the brew blasted the seal right out
of the bottle, so now it's in blow-off mode. Moral to the story: Don't
always believe your homebrew supplier; some things *can't* be done. (I don't
think a 7 gallon bottle would have held it; it's foaming like a mad dog...)

Part2:
I just aquired a mixed case of Samuel Smith Ale (and lager). The lager is
new for them I think, and it's alot like a German (Beck's) lager, not very
English. Good, but not even close to the ales. Yum!

Has anyone actually tried fining the yeast out of suspension to get the
buttery diacytl (sp?) flavor? I'd like to give it a try; if I can get
anywhere near these S.S. ales I'll be happy.

RussG.
R_GELINA at UNHH.BITNET

- -- Would an anti-disclaimer actually be a claimer? --

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Date: Thu, 7 Jun 90 08:26 PDT
From: Mark Freeman <MFreeman at VERMITHRAX.SCH.Symbolics.COM>
Subject: RE: vanilla beans

Date:     Mon, 4 Jun 90 10:29 EST
    From: <S_KOZA%UNHH.BITNET at mitvma.mit.edu>
    Subject:  Vanilla Beans
    
    Hi All.
	    A brewing cohort is interested in putting up a malty, somewhat sweet
    and lightly hopped Vanilla Ale. The question we're unsure of is: How many
    beans should he use or should he consider using a high quality extract?
    Any experiences?
					    Stephan M. Koza


I used about 1/2 bean in a recent stout (5 gallon batch).  The flavor
did not really come through though, so you should probably try
at least one whole bean or more.  I grated and chopped the bean
and added it to the grain.  If I try it again, I think I would
simply add one or two beans to the boil.

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Date: Thu, 7 Jun 90 09:44:28 MDT
From: hplabs!mage!lou
Subject: sanitizing fermenter lid

In HBD #434 Fred Condo writes:

>I use a large (7 gallon) plastic fermenter, which I sanitize by filling it with
>dilute bleach as recommended in "Brewing Quality Beers" by Byron Burch. To
>sanitize the lid, I have been jamming the lid in sideways, so it is about half
>covered in the sanitizing solution; this temporarily distorts the fermenter a
>bit. While my wort is boiling, I rotate the lid at intervals, so the whole lid
>gets sanitized.

>Well, I just noticed that this is not such a good idea, because the lid's lip
>is stiff and sharp enough to have thoroughly scored the interior of my
>fermenter, leaving scratches where bacteria could hide. So far, I have not had
>any problems with infections, but, to keep from further damaging my fermenter,
>I will be using sterilant-soaked towels to sanitize my lid.

Fred, do you have some other container for sanitizing other equipment (siphon
hoses, bottles, etc.)?  If so, you can use it for sanitizing your lid.  One side
of a double sink works well also.

The trouble with using sterilant soaked towels is that a bleach solution should
remain in contact with the surface for 15-30 min. to be effective.  Given the
shape of a fermenter lid, keeping the towels in contact with all the critical
surfaces could be a real problem.  A better way to go is to thoroughly swab all
the important areas with a mixture of 70% Everclear with water.  This works
much faster than the chlorine bleach and so just thoroughly wiping it down is
sufficient.  It also evaporates much faster and you don't have to worry about
chlorine tastes in your beer.

I have successfully removed scratches from hard food grade plastic (racking
tube) using successively finer grades of sandpaper - essentially the same
process as in wood finishing.  I don't know how this would work with the softer
plastic used in fermenters.  You might try it on the outside first to see if it
works.

>Speaking of Byron Burch, his book has been a generally excellent guide for me,
>but there is one thing that is terribly wrong with it. It says that any black
>grain used as a color adjunct can be added directly to your boil about halfway
>through. I did this and ended up with a brown ale that, at bottling time,
>tasted like burnt steak (I kid you not). I bottled it anyway to see if the
>taste will disappear with time. My local homebrew store proprietor, Don
>Siechert, however, advises making an infusion of the black grains by straining
>them through a coffee filter. I haven't tried this yet, but it sounds like a
>good idea.

I make a "tea" out of the grains by adding boiling water to them and steeping
for 20-30 min.  I then strain this into the brewpot and sparge.  Some small
particles will get through the strainer but not enough to cause problems.

Louis Clark
reply to: mage!lou at ncar.ucar.edu


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Date: Thu, 7 Jun 90 09:14 PDT
From: JEEPSRUS <ROBERTN%FM1 at sc.intel.com>
Subject: Reloders scales



>Does anybody have any ideas about where to obtain a precise but
>inexpensive scale?
>So, to do this right I need a scale with a precision of around a tenth
>of a gram.  (Well, OK, I could make do with precision of one gram.)
>Can somebody suggest a different source?  By "inexpensive" I suppose I
>mean "substantially less than the price of a laboratory balance scale."

I agree with other responces about a reloaders scale. 

Given the fact that I reload my own ammunition in addition to
reloading BEER bottles, I can attest to the accuracy of reloaders
scales.

A local gun shop should carry a nice LEE or RCBS scale in the $30
range. Then one I use, a RCBS, even has a table showing grams.

As another poster mentioned, they are accurate to 1/10 grains,
due to the delicacy of powder measurements. This should make them
more than sufficient for your needs.

Given the nature of powder and bullet measurements being relatively
small, you might have to break you measurement into two. I believe
I think mine goes to 1000 grains, but am not sure without.... wait a 
minute, I'll call home!.....  I got it!  500 grains. If, as someone 
mentioned, there are 15.4 grains in a gram, then my scale could 
measure a little over 32 grams. I think it cost about $30-$35.

RobertN


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Date: Thu, 7 Jun 90 12:58:26 EDT
From: Paul Bigelow <bigelow at hppad>
Subject: Siphoning and Bottle Filling
Full-Name: Paul Bigelow

In Al Korzonas excellent summary of how to brew your first batch, he says:
> 	2. Don't start the syphon with your mouth [it's full of bacteria]
> 	   - use a sanitized turkey baster, or at least sanitize your mouth
> 	   with whiskey.

I've found that pre-filling the siphon hose with water works best for me.
The small amount of water introduced to your brew is insignificant
in a 5 gallon batch. If you want to be paranoid about off flavors,
you could use pre-boiled water.

The weakness in my production line is bottle filling. Has anyone found
a really good technique or equipment?

I have a spring loaded bottle filler tube that attaches to the end of
my siphon hose, but it is way too slow (insufficient flow). If I just use
the siphon hose and clamp it by bending the tube, I get a small flood of
beer on the floor. The last few inches of the tube below the clamping point
that go down into the bottle always release their contents when the tube is
inbetween bottles. The top end of the siphon hose is always guaranteed
to slither out of the pail part way through the bottling operation,
in spite of (often unsanitary) attempts to tape the hose down.

Paul Bigelow [who has permanently sticky floors]  bigelow at hppad.hp.com

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Date: Thu, 7 Jun 90 12:07:16 mdt
From: hplabs!hp-lsd.cos.hp.com!ihlpl!korz (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Re: Brewpubs, tastings

Tom Hotchkiss writes:

>I think brewpubs
>are an excellent example since often (in my opinion) the quality
>of their beer lies somewhere between decent homebrew and high
>quality commercial beer.  Therefore, brewpub beer provides an
>example of an improved beer that may be closer to your homebrew
>than commercial beers.

I personally, when I initially read this, thought I would rate
beer quality in this order:

	1. High-Quality European Commercial Beers
	2. High-Quality American (U.S. and CANADA) Microbrews
	3. High-Quality Homebrew
	4. High-Quality Brewpub Beers
	5. Average-Quality European Commercial Beers
			.
			.
			.
	8. Average-Quality Brewpub Beers
	9. OLD BUDMILOORS


On the other hand, it depends on what your criteria is.
If you are looking for consistent beer flavor, the BIG
Brewers win hands down. Same is true if you're considering
shelf life - their santitation control is impeccable
(others would argue that no self-respecting bacteria would
live in Budweiser ;^).

Back to the issue: I don't mind beer reviews of any kind -
but I take them in perspective.  If someone says that
Acme Porter has a strong licorice flavor, I won't buy a case
at first - I don't like licorice. Etc.

Al.



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Date: 07 Jun 90 13:29:15 EDT
From: Jay H. <75140.350 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Short postings, Eckhardt's New Book

At the risk of being out of sink with the discussion on lengthy postings
Most of you forget that just because you have free e-mail access doesn't
mean everyone does, a major reason that it is polite to limit your 
postings and provide direct follow-ups to those interested is (oh horror)
some people still pay for things like computers and connect time!!

On the homebrewing/beer styles side. Yes it is important to be familiar
with styles and flavor perception (why I teach Dr. Beer sessions). Has
anyone read Fred Eckhardt's new book essentials of beer style?? I haven't
had a chance to open mine yet. I'll bet it's chock full of USEFUL info,
'of course you'll have to purchase a copy, it's not distributed free
over the net.

 - Jay H.


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Date: 07 Jun 90 13:34:05 PDT (Thu)
From: florianb at tekred.cna.tek.com
Subject: #434, various

Yesterday, Tom Hotchkiss pointed out that brewpubs are a good way to introduce
oneself to various styles and provide a basis for the judgement of one's own
brew.  You're right, Tom.  I used to frequent these establishments in the
beginning, and I learned a lot by doing that.  Perhaps what is needed is a
specific subject heading and the body of the information concise as Jay 
reminded us.  Separation of brewpub and tasting material from direct 
homebrew discussion by separate submissions will aid us in discriminating
which articles to read.

Jay Hersh also asks about kegging.

Some pertinent tips are:  (1)  See if you can get kegs from a soft-drink
distributor.  Often, they have kegs around which had wine in them, and
they won't put soft drinks back in them.  Be wary of the old Firestone
kegs which have the oval racetrack that uses a square profile o-ring.
The seals may get hard to find soon.  I paid $10 each for my spare kegs.
(2) Extra parts are available from Foxx and Rapids.
(3) You can get the CO2 bottle charged at a fire-extinguisher shop.
(4) Fill the keg, invert once, then charge with CO2 for better sealing.

Florian.


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Date: Thu, 7 Jun 90 06:34:12 PDT
From: hplabs!gatech!intermec.com!maxn (Max Newman x6689)
Subject: haze

I just brewed my first recipes using specialty grains (Charlie P.
steam beer and I.P.A) and have noticed for the first time a haze
in my beer. Would using a grain bag possibly help? Maybe irish moss?
This is the best tasting brew I've made to date, but I'd like it to
look a little nicer.

maxn at intermec.com

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Date: Thu, 07 Jun 90 18:20:14 EDT
From: bowler at ATHENA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Joy Index


I have formatted Steve Conklin's (uunet!ingr!b11!conk!steve) very
helpful index of The Complete Joy for the Macintosh.  I made it into
a Word 4.0 (and 3.0) file.  It prints real nicely on your friendly
LaserWriter.  If anyone is interested in a copy of the file I will
gladly send a copy of this file.  You just need to unbinhex it and
unpack it with stuffit.

- --albert smith, bowler at athena.mit.edu

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Date:     Thu, 7 Jun 90 14:32 EST
From: <HOLTSFOR%MSUKBS.BITNET at CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu>
Subject:  dry ale, run-offs, tolerance


Greetings, homebrewers --

Ken Weiss was wondering about drying-out a pale ale recipe ...

> I'm aiming for a drier, more pale ale quality. Any recipe suggestions? My
> plan is 6 lb. of light extract, 1 lb. of crystal malt, 3 oz. of grated ginger

I'd cut down on the crystal malt.  I think the essence of dryness in beer
taste is no sweetness and little mouth-feel and cutting the crystal by half
should push the taste in that direction while retaining some pale ale
character.

Brian Glendenning was worried (!) about low efficiency and mashing and
a fast run-off ...

>I get the impression from Miller that the grain bed is such an
>efficient filter that the sparge operation will take more than an
>hour. In our case the sparge water comes through at such a rate that
>the sparge is over in 15 or 20 minutes - and that is with the spigot
>partially closed.

Since you're using the double-bucket lauter tun with 1/8th-inch holes (the
Papazian recommendation), you shouldn't be concerned about Miller's time
estimates for run-off.  Miller recommends much smaller holes (1/64" ?) to
strain the mash through.  One sparging trick taught to me by Uptown Jackie
Brown is to collect the first (c. 2gal)runnings of sweet wort and pour these
back through the grain bed.  Hence, more liquid is passed over the grains but
no more volume is added to the sweet wort.  I've been getting gravities of
about 1.062 from 9 lbs of Klages + 1/2 lb of crystal and 1/2 lb of toasted
malt.

I'd also like to echo the sentiment of tolerance for submission of all sorts
of beer-related text.  I don't mind paging through the long beer reviews and
I even enjoy Florian the dreamer's ramblings.

Happy brewing, Tim Holtsford

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Date: Thu, 7 Jun 90 18:58:48 EDT
From: Jeff Close <jclose at potomac.ads.com>
Subject: Re: Beer Babble, my 2 cents

Greg Wageman writes, expressing many people's sentiment:

>Those of you who feel you are suffering from information overload, I
>humbly suggest that's *your* problem; trying to shut people up isn't the
>answer.

>Personally, I find the mix of articles and interests in this newsletter to
>be just about perfect.  I'm grateful to all for pointing me in new directions,
>and not just in homebrewing.

I have to add my support as well for Mr. Mellby (and any others), who
obviously feel that they have something to offer the digest which will
be of interest to others.  I have two comments about Florian's
original remarks:

First, I think it would have been much more appropriate, if you
personally disagreed with Mellby's practice of posting tasting
results, if you had mailed to him personally.  This would have been an
inherently more tactful and diplomatic way of informing him of your
reaction.  If many people chose such an action, he would no doubt get
the message.  Perhaps for insurance, doubling your personal message
with a message to the list maintainer would have insured that your
reaction was recorded.  If many people followed suit, the moderator
could then mail to him, or to the list in general, to cut out the
tastings.  True, some people due occasionally deserve flames from the
net, but in the cases when people's intentions are good, there are
better ways of communicating.  The fact that you chose the public
forum that you did suggested to me that either you were trying to
muster public support for your idea, or you were trying to embarass
him.  Just a suggestion.

Second, I think it's RIDICULOUS to suggest that beer tastings and
brewpubs have nothing to do with a homebrewers' list!  I am also a
very active wine enthusiast, and what you say is analogous to saying
that wine tastings and visiting vineyards have nothing to do with
vinification!

Just enjoy the list, if possible; and if not, why not just
unsubscribe?

                                   -^-
* Nothing I say or write could possibly represent the opinions of:
Advanced Decision Systems	    |  InterNet:jclose at potomac.ads.com
1500 Wilson Blvd/Arlington, VA 22209|  UUCP:  sun!sundc!potomac!jclose




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End of HOMEBREW Digest #435, 06/08/90
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