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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  RE: Difference between Ale and Lager ("James Fitzell")
  re: rice hulls/H20 before grain/Texas ales/EtOH (Dane Mosher)
  RE: Question about Anchor Steam... (David Radwin)
  RE: brew pumps (Lou King)
  Re: difference between ale and lager ("Steve B")
  Collecting bets on ale vs. lager (David Harsh)
  Question about Anchor Steam... ("Strom C. Thacker")
  RE:the missing WMDs ... (Inland-Gaylord)" <BSmith51@ICCNET.COM>
  anchor steam ("Kurt Schweter")
  Difference between Ale and Lager (Thanks) (tebird)
  Handling the large volume of liquid in pLambic brew sessions (RiedelD)
  Priming Sugar Question (Robert Sandefer)
  Difference between Ale and Lager (Leo Vitt)


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Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 14:57:34 +1000
From: "James Fitzell" <JFitzell at tecbuild.com.au>
Subject: RE: Difference between Ale and Lager

Hi,

Just a question following the discussions of the yeast used to make an
Ale or a Lager.  I have read in many places that almost 99% of beers are
now made using Lager yeasts.  In the same books/locations I have read
that a Lager is a bottom fermented beer and an Ale is a top fermenter
beer.  Which is it?  What makes an Ale an Ale if it's fermented with a
Lager (bottom fermenting) yeast?

Thanks,
James


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Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 23:03:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dane Mosher <dane_mosher at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: rice hulls/H20 before grain/Texas ales/EtOH

>do you put all the rice hulls at the bottom of the
mash tun, or mix them evenly throughout the grist?

I have tried mixing rice hulls evenly through the
grist.  However, some of the hulls will tend to float
on top of the mash, doing no good.  To prevent that, I
mix the hulls with only 2/3rds of the grist, and mash
that in with about 2/3rds of the water.  Once it's
well mixed, I add the last 1/3 of the grist and water
and mix again.  Fewer hulls end up floating, and they
are still pretty well distributed.


>It's easy enough to measure out the water in the mash
tun itself, heat it, then add the grains to it and
dough in. Is that "wrong"??

Not at all, as long as the grain gets mixed in to the
water in a reasonable amount of time.  I think the
possible danger of this technique is that in a
single-infusion mash you can have enzyme-denaturing
temperatures in contact with some of the grain before
it gets mixed in.  However, it actually takes a bit of
time to denature those enzymes, so as long as you
start mixing right away there shouldn't be any
problem.


>He said it HAD to be an ale because anything over
5.5% ABV was an ale while under 5.5% was a lager.  I
told him he was wrong and he bet me $100 that he was
right.

Most of the world, and ALL BREWERS, define ale and
lager by yeast strain and/or fermentation temperature.
 However, the TABC has confused many a beer drinker in
Texas with their labeling laws in which they define
"ale" to be any beer above a certain alcohol
percentage.  Your friend is slightly off because the
cutoff is above 4% by weight, which means above 5.0%
ABV.  Still, it might be hard to convince him he's
wrong about that high alcohol beer.  Have you checked
your dictionary for definitions of lager?  Mine says
it is any beer stored for several months.  Aha!  That
could be applied to any beer.


>which one is the accepted way to represent the type
of alcohol that comprises the bulk of the alcohol that
you would generally find in beer? Is ETOH just an
abbreviation?

Et is an abbreviation for an ethyl group (-CH2CH3). 
So EtOH is an abbreviation for CH3CH2OH.  Ethyl
alcohol is by far the main alcohol in all alcoholic
beverages.

Dane Mosher
Fort Worth, TX



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Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 23:37:58 -0700
From: David Radwin <dradwin at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE: Question about Anchor Steam...

From: "Peter Flint Jr." <peterflint at mindspring.com>

> My question is, does anyone know if AS is bottle conditioned?  I had 
> always thought it was filtered and cleaned-up given its wide-spread 
> distribution, however the evidence seems to point to the contrary.

When I took the Anchor Steam tour a few years ago, they told us they 
filtered their beers.

- -- 
David Radwin
replies to news at removethispart.davidradwin.com



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Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 03:09:07 -0400
From: Lou King <lking at pobox.com>
Subject: RE: brew pumps

I use the H310 from Beer, Beer and More Beer (NAYYY) for my RIMS.  I
believe that is a March pump.  A quick check of their website doesn't
show that model now, but it looks like H315 is comparable.  The
difference is that mine has a brass housing while the H315's housing is
Polysulphone.  I like the brass because I don't have to worry (so much)
about stripping the threads, but I'm sure the Polysulphone is fine if
you're careful.  They also have other pump options you can check out.

Also you can look at http://www.lousbrews.com , click on RIMS, then RIMS
Parts for other information.

Moving Brews is out of business.

Lou King
Ijamsville, MD

> From: Ralph Link <ralphl at shaw.ca>
> Subject: brew pumps
> 
> Can anyone give me information regarding where to purchase or 
> get information on brew pumps.  Is Moving Brews still in 
> business? What are the RIMS people using these days? Private 
> email is great. 




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Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 08:28:34 -0400
From: "Steve B" <habenero92 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: difference between ale and lager

It has been my experience that the only way to tell the difference is with 
the yeast used.  As soon as some one makes a comparison about beer color, 
taste, hoppiness, etc. the person on my right will come up with an example 
of ale and lager that will be the opposite definition.  As for the sales rep 
quoting exact ABVs, I would look to a legal definition of "beer" in Texas.  
I know from experience that many states define malt liquor as beer with an 
ABV about 8%.
S



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Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 09:26:14 -0400
From: David Harsh <dharsh at fuse.net>
Subject: Collecting bets on ale vs. lager

> Bruce Millington <bmillington at verizon.net> writes:
>
> Hand that guy a bottle of Samichlaus(14% lager) and a bottle of just 
> about
> any wheat ale (under 5%), and collect your $100!

No.   SHOW him the bottles and collect the cash.  Keep them for 
yourself!

Dave Harsh							Cincinnati, OH
Bloatarian Brewing League



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Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 09:50:23 -0400
From: "Strom C. Thacker" <strom at wort.org>
Subject: Question about Anchor Steam...

Based on the tours that I've had of the Anchor Brewery, I'm pretty 
sure that all Anchor beers are filtered and force carbonated in bulk. 
I've never heard of them bottle conditioning anything, even their 
barleywine.

I'm a huge fan of Anchor products, but many of them (Steam and 
Liberty, at a minimum) do not travel or age well for some reason. 
When fresh (in the tap room at the end of the tour, for example;-), 
they are unbeatable.  But I don't generally drink them when I'm not 
local.

Hope this helps,

Strom
Newton, MA


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Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 09:17:27 -0500 
From: "Smith, Brian (Inland-Gaylord)" <BSmith51 at ICCNET.COM>
Subject: RE:the missing WMDs ...


Peter wrote...

Ever wonder where those missing WMDs got to? A George Will column from 
June 22 (2003) suggests an answer 
(<http://www.townhall.com/columnists/georgewill/gw20030622.shtml>):

"... Such destruction need not have been a huge task. Says [James] 
Woolsey [President Clinton's first CIA director]. Chemical or biological 
weapons could have been manufactured with minor modifications of a 
fertilizer plant, or in a plant as small as a microbrewery attached to a 
restaurant."

Cheerio!
Peter A. Ensminger
Syracuse, NY
http://hbd.org/ensmingr


Peter,

Please don't give Attn. General Ashcroft any ideas, he'll have the FBI
knocking on Marc Sedam's door for having a brewery.  It just a leap of
imagination to registration of fermenters and malt extract "growth media".
Imagine a 5 day waiting period for liquid yeast cultures and DME.  George
Orwell here we come.....

- ----Warning, the preceding was written with a health dose of HUMOR and
SARCASM-----

Brian Smith
Big Ring Brewery
undisclosed location
North America



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Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 08:50:48 -0700
From: "Kurt Schweter" <KSchweter at smgfoodlb.com>
Subject: anchor steam

all of anchor's products are flash pasturized not bottle conditioned


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 13:04:09 -0500
From: tebird at centurytel.net
Subject: Difference between Ale and Lager (Thanks)

I would like to thank everyone that responded to my question on the 
difference between ale and lager.  Seem that I am just going to 
have to call this one a draw since there are really 2 possible answer 
and either of us could really be right.  I was really surprised to hear 
that the law makers have caused such a problem in the naming of 
the beer.  Such is life... those that don't have a clue run the 
situation.  Thanks again for all the responses

Thomas Bird
San Marcos Tx.


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Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 11:14:53 -0700 
From: RiedelD at pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca
Subject: Handling the large volume of liquid in pLambic brew sessions

Hi folks,

I'm gearing up to do a batch of pLambic.  In my usual 'collection of
background and procedure' stage, I've found 2 methods that interest me most:
the Cantillon Modified Turbid Mash and the Boon Modified Turbid Mash.  Both
methods are in the Brewing Techniques 3-part article on making Lambics at
home.  Problem is, both methods produce a huge pre-boil volume (9 gallons
pre-boil to yield 5 gallons to the fermenter).  I had hoped to make 8-10
gallons due to the time invested, but I can't handle an 18 gallon boil with
my setup.

1.  How does everyone else handle this problem?  Do two boils?  ??
or
2.  Has anyone used a different procedure to get around the large volume
problem?  How do you ensure that you are getting some unconverted starch
into the fermenter?

thanks,
Dave Riedel
Victoria, Canada





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Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 14:20:09 -0400
From: Robert Sandefer <melamor at vzavenue.net>
Subject: Priming Sugar Question

Since the HBD re-energized to slam the Texas Legislature :) I have a 
question about priming sugars.

Why is corn sugar (i.e., glucose) so popular for priming when white sugar 
(i.e., sucrose) is more available and cheaper?

Based on Mark Hibberd's "A Primer on Priming" 
(http://www.hbd.org/brewery/library/YPrimerMH.html) and my own 
determination of sucrose density, it seems half a cup of sucrose could 
replace the standard 3/4 cup of glucose for a five-gallon batch.

Am I missing something?

What priming sugar do the HBDers use?

TIA

Robert Sandefer
Arlington, VA



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Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 16:20:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Leo Vitt <leo_vitt at yahoo.com>
Subject: Difference between Ale and Lager


Thomas Bird told a story about a Bud sales rep betting $100 that a
lager must be under 5.5% alc and ales can be over.

If you define lager and ale according to laws in the USA, he is right. 
In his industry, he is going to think in those terms.

I on the other hand use the definition Thomas used.  Top fermenting vs
bottom fermenting.  I also think fermentation temp is part of it.  
Yes there are cross over cases - Kolsch, steam beer.

That doesn't really make beers like Paulaner Doppelbock an ale, but the
labels I see in the USA have the word ale on them.  I don't know if
that is a federal law,  or is the law in certain states.  The brewer
that is exporting to the USA is not going to label according to which
state the beer is headed to.

Some of the strongest commercial beers in the world are lagers.
Sami-claus, EKU-28, Eisebocks.  The US sold bottle probably says ale on
the label to meet the law.

=====
Leo Vitt
Sidney, NE



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