HOMEBREW Digest #4370 Fri 10 October 2003

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  RE: Beano and stuck fermentations (Jonathan Royce)
  What Gravity to use for IBU Calculations (Jonathan Royce)
  beer list? ("Spencer W. Thomas")
  Do I need to constantly stir the wort? (mswanson)
  Beer enjoyment /(not) stuck fermentation ("-S")
  Noonan/Bad Beer/Flax ("Chad Stevens")
  what is bad beer (Marc Sedam)
  hops and dogs ("Mike Racette")
  Re: Going to SF ("Dave Hull")
  Re:Going to SF (Mark Alfaro)
  Re: going to SF (Robert Marshall)
  beer in restaurants ("dave holt")
  beer education & Texas ("dave holt")
  All's Ale That Ends Ale ("Steve Smith")
  Chicago Brewpubs (Andrew Calder)
  Supersaturation vs. saturation (apology) (Jonathan Royce)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 04:46:49 -0700 From: Jonathan Royce <jonathan at woodburybrewingco.com> Subject: RE: Beano and stuck fermentations Thanks to everyone who responded regarding the idea of enzymes and a stuck ferment. I received quite a few offline replies in addition to those that were posted to HBD, and most seemed to agree that other remedies exist that are better than using an enzyme to break down the excess sugar chains. Assuming that Alan doesn't mind, I'm going to plagarize his webpage (http://www.bodensatz.com/staticpages/index.php? page=20020429215128446#stuck_ferm) in order to summarize the replies: - (1) Give the fermenter a good shake or stir to rouse the yeast - (2) Aerate again to wake up the yeast (could have bad side effects) - (3) Add some more wort to wake the yeast - (4) Add 1 to 2 litres of actively fermenting beer (high kraeusen) - (5) Add yeast nutrient and energizer according to instructions - (6) Move fermenter to a warmer place (only if it's too cold) - (7) pray Prior to posting my initial question, I had done the following (probably should have mentioned this at the beginning): (1) Roused yeast (Wyeast 1098, which I hear is sometimes finicky and prone to this problem) (2) Pitched an actively fermenting starter (with nutrient) of Wyeast 1056, which I've had good experience with getting to attenuate (3) Checked the temperature of the fermenter (it's fine at 68F) The reason I suspect that large-chain sugars are my problem is two-fold: (1) I switched malt extracts and used William's Maris Otter LME and I've read some posts on r.c.b. that indicate that others have had problems getting this to attenuate and (2) my partial mash used 2.5 lbs of Maris Otter malt, 0.5 lb of Victory and 1 lb of medium crystal with a mash temp that ended up being a bit higher than planned. I do not think that mishandling of the yeast was a problem as I pitched a fairly large starter of yeast that had fermented in the smack pack and then been stepped up twice on my aerated stir plate. I aerated the wort as I always do and there was a 2" layer of foam on top of the liquid before I pitched the slurry. I like Dave Burley's idea of using Clinitest to check for sugar. A quick google search turned up this article which was helpful in understanding how that will work: http://www.brewinfo.com/articles/clinitest.html (Thanks "-S".) All of the above taken into consideration, if the Clinitest shows that there are sugars remaining, I think my choices are 1) leave it or 2) enzyme it. I've pretty much resolved myself to the option #1. It may be a bit sweeter than I'd hoped, but c'est la vie. Tonight I'm going to take a final S.G. reading to see if it's moved at all this week. I haven't seen any airlock activity, so I'm not really too optimistic, but I guess 1.020 isn't too bad. I'd made this same recipe last year using a bit more Munton's LME and less pale malt in the mash and it attenuated down to 1.014, which is where I wanted it to be. I think next time I'll go back to Munton's and see what happens. Thanks again, Jonathan Woodbury Brewing Co. www.woodburybrewingco.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 05:52:08 -0700 From: Jonathan Royce <jonathan at woodburybrewingco.com> Subject: What Gravity to use for IBU Calculations Just two more quick points regarding the IBU calculations for bittering. I agree with many folks' comments that the calculations are just an estimate and therefore it is more important to be consistent. As Steve points out, "Getting the IBUs to within 10% is mostly luck." With that in mind, it is of interest to consider the difference between using the O.G. of the boil and F.G. of the boil in doing the calcs, as I've done here: http://www.woodburybrewingco.com/IBU_time.html Although it may just be a coincidence, for my example the difference between using the O.G. and F.G. of the boil is 38 IBU v 35 IBU, or about 10%. :0 That point notwithstanding, I still like to use the initial gravity of the boil, not only because (as John Palmer points out), it is typically the gravity at which the greatest mass of bittering hops are added, but also because the initial stages of the boil are the point at which the greatest percentage of alpha acids are isomerized. As I've demonstrated with the vertical lines, 50% of the total IBUs are "extracted" (for lack of a better word) in the first 15 minutes, 75% at 28 minutes and 90% at 43 minutes. In other words, because of the utilization (at least for Tinseth) is an exponential function in which the independent variable is "-t", incremental utilization decreases rapidly as the boil progresses. Just some food for thought. Happy brewing, Jonathan Woodbury Brewing Co. www.woodburybrewingco.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 09:04:59 -0400 From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <spencer at umich.edu> Subject: beer list? Why do restaurants not maintain a "beer list"? Besides the obvious one (not enough people would ask for it), another has to be the inherent fragility of most beer styles. Wine will keep for a year or (in some cases) much longer, and aged wine has a certain cachet that is in some cases justified. Aged beer is usually bad, again with a few exceptions. So if you have a beer list, you've got to turn the stock over or you'll be pouring the stock down the drain. (Or selling bad beer, which defeats the purpose in the long run.) =S Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 08:28:19 -0500 From: mswanson <mswanson at codetek.com> Subject: Do I need to constantly stir the wort? Hi, I'm pretty new to brewing and I hope this question isn't out of place. I've brewed 5 extract batches so far and each time, I was careful to keep stirring the wort from the time I added the malt extract to the time the boil was finished. My question is: Do I need to keep stirring the wort even after the extract has been full dissolved? It seems that with the rolling boil, stirring doesn't seem needed as often as I have done. But, being new at this, I wasn't taking any chances. Thanks for any help, Michael Swanson - -- Michael Swanson, Software Architect CodeTek Studios, Inc., http://www.codetek.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 11:01:27 -0400 From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net> Subject: Beer enjoyment /(not) stuck fermentation Marc Sedam says ... >When I'm > judging in a competition the first thing I do [...] is just > taste the beer. Is it good? Do I *like* it? What's my > impression of the overall drink? After the 'gut check' then > I go down the list of specific characteristics [...] Funny but my approach is the opposite. I find that my first gut impression is always the most accurate and detailed. Those quickly vanishing initial impressions sometimes don't reappear, or only weakly, in sequential sips of the same beer. Later sips are usually verification and better identification. I *think* that if your palate is already saturated with flavor X, then additional sips of the same flavor produce a diminished sensory awareness. As far as Alexandre' interesting question ... yes I do find that I am more critical, overly critical of my own beers, but not beer in general. The analytical aspect of tasting a new beer (not my own) is more a byproduct of knowing what I am tasting and having words and comparisons for the flavors, and doesn't interfere (much) with enjoyment. My taste in beer has changed with additional experience, but that's normal. >Before I had studied Zen for thirty years, I saw mountains as mountains, > and waters as waters. >When I arrived at a more intimate knowledge, I came to the point >where I saw that mountains are not mountains, > and waters are not waters. >But now that I have got its very substance I am at rest. >For it's just that I see mountains once again as mountains, > and waters once again as waters. > > - Ching-yuan Hey - I'm at the 21 year mark in critical tasting and beers are once again starting to taste like beers. ================ Jonathan Royce says, > I am > experiencing my first ever stuck ferment (1.022 vs. expected 1.014), [...] The term "stuck" fermentation usually refers to a yeast problem. The yeast cease to actively ferment because some necessary growth factor is absent or else wort conditions contain toxic factors that prevent growth. It does not generally refer to the case where fermentable sugars are the absent growth factor. That condition is called "complete attenuation", not "stuck fermentation". It sounds like you are unhappy with the fermentability of the wort, after the fact. Let's not blame the yeast ;^) > 1) Is there any advantage to using alpha or beta amylase over "Beano"? Beano is Alpha-Galactosidase(EC3.2.1.22) in a saline, sorbitol, potassium sorbate solution. There is a concern that the p.sorbate is a yeast inhibitor and the saline flavor may throw a beer flavor off in quantity. Beano A-galactosidase is derived from aspergillus niger, the same sort of fungi used in saki moto fermentation. A.niger can produce all sorts of interesting and powerful carbohydrases, but the active ingredient in beano only acts on 1-3-galactose bonds which aren't prevalent in beer dextrins. Beer has relatively few 1-3 branches and very little galactose too. If Beano has any substantial activity on beer dextrins it is NOT because of the alpha-galactosidase, but rather because of other A.niger enzymes contained in the product. Beers contain significant dextrins reducible via beta-amylase(EC3.2.1.2) which breaks 1-4-D-glucose polymers pairwise. Some of these are produced in the mashout period (see B.S.Envoldsen's sugar assays of wort in the EBC Congress papers). Still alpha-amylase(EC3.2.1.1) is a safer bet for converting larger amounts of dextrins to fermentables since it breaks 1-4-glucose bonds without the pairwise constraint. The problem is that most unresolvable beer dextrins contain 1-6 glucose bonds that none of the enzymes above can handle. > 2) Have *you* personally ever tried any enzymatic technique to lower FG and > what were the results? Yes. Last year I purchased a bottle of AMYLO-glucosidase(EC3.2.1.3), also from A.niger source, specifically spec'ed for brewing applications. The amyloglucosidase breaks 1-4 glucose bonds at non reducing ends. This is sort of like beta-amylase, but it produces only glucose instead of maltose. Most forms of amyloglucosidase including this one also break 1-6 glucose bonds adjacent to 1-4 bonds (and some forms will break 1-3s but these aren't a major beer issue). I'm getting between 92-100% apparent attenuation by adding 1ml per 5 gallons for otherwise 'normal' brews. It's made as Novozyme AMG-300L, I believe. It has several US wholesale resellers including Seibel&Sons. I got mine through "my local HB shop http://www.grapeandgranary.com/ (call and ask for John Pastor and he can special order it in liter quantities - enough for 5000 gal of beer for around $30 as I recall). Maybe he'd rebottle it in smaller quantities if there was a market. Some UK HB shops sell this or similar in small quantities. > 3) What type and what volume of enzyme have you used and did fermentation > actually *end* or did you crash the fermenter and refrigerate to prevent > further activity? (I ask this because I do not have a place to store beer cold > and I don't want bottle bombs if I add an enzyme to my fermenter.) The instructions call for between 0.4 and 1.2 ml of the enzyme preparation per 5 gallons (scaled from 10bbl recommendation). I've been using it at 2ml per 10gal in the fermenter. I don't bottle, but so far the fermentations have ended cleanly. I think this is bacause there is enough enzyme to complete the degradation in a few days at most. If you add very small quantities you may have lingering fermentation. -S(teve Alexander) Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 08:05:05 -0700 From: "Chad Stevens" <zuvaruvi at cox.net> Subject: Noonan/Bad Beer/Flax Y'all, I just received Noonan's newly reprinted "New Brewing Lager Beer" in the mail from Amazon last night. Just thought I'd gloat! - ----- I have a bad beer confession: at a retirement party two weeks ago, I had two Bud long necks. They were bad beers. But that's OK, they were to style. - ----- I guess my original flax post never posted so my second post regarding Galactose, Arabinose...kinda' came out of nowhere. An explanation is in order. I made a Julol (Old Norse Mid-winter celebration ale) with lots of oats, and some home malted stuff, and honey..... Because crops in the 9th century weren't cultivated and harvested as cleanly as they are today, I threw a couple of tablespoons of flax seed in with the adjuncts during gelatinization to approximate random seed being in the grist. I noticed as the 30 min gelatinization progressed, the flax became gummy, then the gum sloughed off and went into solution. Because there were a lot of oats in this beer and it is quite alcoholic, I did not expect much foam. To the contrary, the beer gives a dense foam of incredible duration. I don't know if it did, but I think the mucilaginous coating on the flax may have played a role in foam stabilization. Now that I have read what I've read about foam stabilizers and realizing flax mucilage is a veritable foam stability cocktail, I'm going to play with it some more. Chad Stevens QUAFF San Diego - ----- "Talking about music is like dancing about architecture." -Laurie Anderson Guess we should all go have a brew! Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 11:14:17 -0400 From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu> Subject: what is bad beer Christopher Clair talks about his "horrible" alt that won a medal in a competition... Some of you may recall that my efforts to make a true Bavarian dunkles have been frustrating, with a taste that I just didn't like at all. Even brewing with 100% German Munich malt didn't help. I was using the Ayinger yeast (WhiteLabs "German bock" strain) and German hops and was just unhappy. Jeff Renner suggested adding a little calcium carbonate to the mash due to my very soft water--this may help. OTOH, I have been out in more bars and beer festivals in the last week than I normally am. One local bar had Tabernash's dunkles on tap. I've heard good things about that brewery and figured it might help me get the taste I was missing. It tasted EXACTLY like my homebrew. Same "funny" flavor. At a beer festival later in the week I had another couple of dunkles. Same flavor. I have come to the conclusion that maybe I just don't like any dunkles other than Ayinger Dunkles served on draft in Munich. Oh those heavenly flavors I may be destined never to re-create...but my search for liquid bread crust (that's the flavor of Ayinger dunkles) will never end. Cheers! Marc - -- Marc Sedam Chapel Hill, NC Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 12:36:13 -0600 From: "Mike Racette" <mike.racette at hydro-gardens.com> Subject: hops and dogs Jeremy Bergsman says: I'm not a dog person so I don't remember the details, but I'm surprised no one has brought up the fact that hops can be extremely poisonous to some dogs. A search of the archives will find details on which breeds are affected. All of these cases (about 7 the last time I looked into it) involved dogs (mostly greyhounds by the way) that consumed LARGE quantities of spent hops. Not saying this warning isn't a good one, its just that it isn't really the same as giving a dog the dregs from a couple of beers (I hope). Although I compost spent grains, I always dispose of spent hops where dogs can't get at them (unless they frequent the landfill that is). Miker Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 12:54:23 -0700 From: "Dave Hull" <SPAMFREEbrewingislovingNOSPAM at hotmail.com> Subject: Re: Going to SF Hey Tom, You'll want to find your way to 547 Haight St. Just hop in a cab or a bus. Once you see the Toronados' Belgian selection (on tap!) you won't be sorry that you made the trip. I'm not sure if their Belgian selection will be truncated because tonight, the 9th, is their Oktoberfest celebration. You're sure to find something good, though. After you've had a few, go next door to the sausage shop and get a sausage sandwich. Mmmm. Cheers, Dave Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 13:51:48 -0700 From: Mark Alfaro <malfaro at kyocera-wireless.com> Subject: Re:Going to SF Don't miss the Toronado Pub 547 Haight Street - Many Belgian Beers. Mark Alfaro Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 14:32:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Marshall <robertjm at hockeyhockeyhockey.com> Subject: Re: going to SF Tom, Sorry, I can't give you info on finding a "dive bar" to camp out at, but I'll drop you four places to consider while here. 1 - Pacific Coast Brewing (Oakland). Though its in Oakland, its just a couple of blocks from a BART station, so its definately easy for you to get to. Some people stay away from it because Don uses extract for brewing! If you get over there, he's got a couple of really good ones. My personal faves are PCB Imperial Stout and the Blue Whale Ale. Sometimes he makes the Code Blue Barley Wine, which is a higher alcohol version of the Blue Whale Ale. Be forewarned, his brews are "hopo-centric" so if hops aren't your game, choose your brews wisely. The website (hasn't been upgraded in awhile) is: http://www.pacificcoastbrewing.com 2 - If the weather is good when you're here, and you feel like taking a short ferry ride on the Bay, head over to Larkspur. Right across the street from the Larkspur Ferry Dock is the Larkspur Landing Shopping Center. In that center is the Marin Brewing Company. Lots of different brews on tap. Very busy place at certain times. If you consider going there, double check the ferry schedule. They've been monkeying with it so I'm not sure how late it runs. Would be a pain if you missed the last boat to SF! website: http://www.marinbrewing.com/ 3 - Beach Chalet Brewery & Restaurant - They're way out by the ocean so this may be more of a Muni ride than you want to take, and their website doesn't have any hints on which Muni routes to take. The Beach Chalet is a historical landmark with the upstairs turned into a brewery/restaurant. My favorites are the Presidio IPA and Riptide Red, but they have several others that are pretty good too. Website is: http://www.beachchalet.com/ 4 - Since you like Belgians, I've saved the best for last, the Toronado. These guys are the Belgian capital of the Bay Area, if not the entire West Coast. I'll never forget the time I went to San Francisco to watch the X-Games, and the street luge. After it was done I decided to walk back to the Embarcadero. (Somehow I'd forgot that is a smidge over 7 miles). Halfway back, I stopped at the Toronado. I don't think I've had a better beer than that day <grin!> They're on Haight Street, which can be a downfall when driving, but the website says there are MUNI lines that stop nearby so this is definately within reach. Here's their website: http://www.toronado.com/ Enjoy! Robert - ----------------------------- > Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 11:26:48 -0400 > From: "Tom Viemont" <tviemont at atstaff.com> > Subject: Going to SF > > Hey There Fellow Aficionados > > I ask the age-old question...where can I drink good > beer in a strange > land? I'm off to work a trade show in San Francisco > from Oct 11th to > the 15th at the Moscone Center. I'll be staying > near the convention > center. I will not have wheels. > > Any places I ought to go while I'm there that I can > reach on foot or by > BART? > Is there a place within walking distance of the > convention center where > I can get good beer, preferably a dive? In other > words, I'm looking for > a home base. > I live in a state where strong beer is illegal. > Anyplace I can get a > good selection of Belgians? > > A quick search of Pubcrawler suggests the 21st > Amendment as a good pub > to stop at, but doesn't really sound like a dive. > I also see that a tour of the Anchor Brewery should > be on my agenda. > Years ago, I stayed at the Hotel Monaco and found a > suitable dive bar up > the street, but I'm sure much has changed since > then... > > Thanks! > > Tom Viemont Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 14:38:49 -0700 From: "dave holt" <brewdave at hotmail.com> Subject: beer in restaurants I think most of us understand why microbrews are lumped together with imports due to price. For a lack of a better analogy, it would be like a wine list that lumps California sparkling wine with Champagne and calling both Champagne because of price and hey, they both are sparkling wines. (I know, one is made in the Champagne region and can only be called that.) But at least the somewhat educated public knows the difference. The uninformed wait staff gave the smart ass in me the perfect setup by responding I would like an imported SNPA. Smart ass aside, it also gave me an opportunity to educate the wait staff a little on beer. That is what underlies this whole thread, the general public is uneducated about beer. That I see as one of our missions as homebrewers, to educate when we can without appearing as snobs. I'm sure there are those who have heard this too. "Oh, I didn't know there is that much to beer." To the uneducated, there is yellow fizzy beer and dark beer. On asking for good beer, I think most of us have encountered the Killian's or Sam Adams response. I'm sorry, Sam Adams used to be a respectable beer. The current beer has been made more drinkable, aka, wussed out for mass appeal. Same thing has happened to Pete's Wicked Ale but not to the extreme. Craft beer to mass appeal, didn't take long. Dave Holt brewing in AZ Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 14:51:07 -0700 From: "dave holt" <brewdave at hotmail.com> Subject: beer education & Texas Hopefully the Texan brewers can help me with this one. I went to a BBQ joint in Dallas. I saw beer listed on the board without prices. When I paid for dinner, I asked for a beer. I was told beer'came' with my dinner. There was no charge but I couldn't request what flavor. The owner muttered something about the lack of a liquor license and county laws. Whatever he pulled out of the ice chest next to the cash register is what I got. So I guessed the restaurant could give me a beer without charge, and that by requesting a brand amounted to ordering a beer which was a no-no. I thanked the owner for the beer. Here are the questions I had. Was a tip or donation expected? Could I get another beer? I only had one beer. Please educate me on proper etiquette in Texas. I left scratching my head, went to the liquor store, bought beer and had the second beer at the hotel. Dave Holt Chandler, AZ Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 17:41:39 -0600 From: "Steve Smith" <sasmith at in-tch.com> Subject: All's Ale That Ends Ale I'm following a partial extract, partial mash recipe from the book "Beer Captured", for a Hammer & Nail Scotch Ale clone. The book recipe provides the hop bitterness target at 28 IBU's. For the first time, I just used John Palmer's hop bitterness calculation formulas http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter5-5.html to see how significantly lower of an IBU target I would end up with by doubling my batch of wort, while using one less gallon of water than the doubled recipe calls for. I did this because my 26 quart pot won't handle the entire 7 gallon total volume of wort that is called for in the doubled recipe. By doubling, I figured I could save some time, and also test out the new outdoor propane burner I bought to handle large boil volumes. When I calculated the recipe's IBU target myself, by using Palmer's formula, entering the full amount of water called for in the recipe, my calculation came close to the book's, at 27.68 IBU's. At least I had followed the calculation correctly. When I figured the IBU target for a double batch of wort minus a gallon of water , I came up with the resulting lower IBU target of 27.06 IBU's. It seems to be a pretty negligible change in the IBU target. Do you agree? Could the lessening of bitterness by .62 of 1/30th of the target noticeably change the character of the final product? I ask because I have the exact amount of hops, 4 oz., to follow the recipe for a double batch, and didn't bother buying more so as to add more to the boil to get back to the recipe's IBU target. It didn't seem to be necessary. Another thing, I was thinking that if I do double the recipe, I should make sure that the wort boils as rapidly (at a hot temperature) as possibly without risking a boilover, to obtain maximum hop alpha acid utilization, given the lower proportion of water. Or would that cause more evaporation, and thereby lessen hop utilization? My homebrew supplier told me today not to sweat the small stuff, since the beer's not for competition or commercial use. I guess that since I usually follow recipes closely, I'm just trying to get some more feedback as to whether this kind of minor tweaking makes sense, or ends up risking the overall quality of the final product. Closing in on brew day, Steve Smith sasmith at in-tch.com Missoula, MT Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 19:06:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrew Calder <arcalder2000 at yahoo.com> Subject: Chicago Brewpubs Howdy Rick, Check out Goose Island Brewpubs: The Clybourn Brew Pub is located at: 1800 North Clybourn in Chicago. 312.915.0071 The Wrigleyville Brew Pub is located at: 3535 North Clark Street in Chicago. 773.832.9040 ===== Hope this helps, Andrew Calder, New Lenox, IL [218.1,257] Apparent Rennerian Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 19:33:13 -0700 From: Jonathan Royce <jonathan at woodburybrewingco.com> Subject: Supersaturation vs. saturation (apology) After much offline discussion, Steve Alexander and I have come to an agreement that wort is indeed supersaturated with CO2 (not just saturated) during fermentation. That said, I owe Chad Stevens a public apology for incorrectly correcting him on a HBD a week or so past. One thing that's nice about HBD is that it is such a civil and mature discussion group--much more so than many others I participate in online (both brewing and non-brewing related). Now, back to the ball game. Happy brewing, Jonathan Woodbury Brewing Co. www.woodburybrewingco.com Return to table of contents
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