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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Off topic: wine making (Michael)
  Re: Gravity samples, decarbonating (Grant Family)
  pumpkin ale (Marc Sedam)
  Aeration using dried yeasts (Michael Hartsock)
  sulfites (MOREY Dan)
  Visiting Vancouver (Denise Graham)
  Re: Gravity samples, decarbonating (Demonick)
  re: calories ("-S")
  Commercial Beer Additives ("Joe Berardino")
  re: Aereation of wort ("-S")
  Pumpkin Ale, bubbles tiny bubbles ("Dave Burley")
  kegging question ("Gregory D. Morris")
  re: Concentration of gelatin in yeast slant ("-S")
  The Chocolate Stout ("Parker Dutro")
  Gump on Aereation of Wort ("Rob Moline")


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Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 23:42:51 -0500
From: Michael <grice at binc.net>
Subject: Off topic: wine making

Darrell Leavitt describes heating merlot juice to 170 degrees Fahrenheit
and asks how to avoid wild yeasts and bacteria without using sulfites.

First, don't heat the juice! Grape juice is not wort; you don't need to
or want to pasteurize it. The pH of grape juice is low enough to keep
most unwanted critters out of the juice in combination with sulfite.
During fermentation, make sure to punch the cap made by the grape skins
down at least twice a day so that it's underneath the juice. This helps
prevent bacteria from growing on the surface.

You can certainly make wine without using sulfites. You are at a greater
risk for both spoilage and aeration without using them. One thing you
can do is to make sure that after fermentation your carboys are topped
off fully. Many of the spoilage organisms you might find in wine are
aerobic, so the less exposure to air the better. Also, make sure your pH
is between 3.1 and 3.5. (You may want to double-check those numbers first.)

I've also been misting the top of the wine with grain alcohol. The idea
is that this kills any critters that might be growing on the top.

Since you're making a red, you may also want to add a malolactic culture
to induce malolactic fermentation. This will reduce the odds that your
wine will get hit with a wild one.

I recommend Jon Iverson's "Home Winemaking Step-by-Step" as a nice book
for a beginning wine maker. I am but a beginner myself and frankly am
not entirely happy with my first efforts (but we'll see about this
year).

By the way, is the Home Vintner's Digest still alive? I think I'm still
subscribed...


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Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 20:06:46 +1100
From: Grant Family <grants at netspace.net.au>
Subject: Re: Gravity samples, decarbonating

G'day Chris,

I was similarly intrigued by the notion of decarbonating hydrometer 
samples, though I haven't tried it yet.

I think your initial "bubble hypothesis" was probably correct. However, you 
heated the sample up past the boiling point of ethanol, thereby removing 
some of it and raising the SG.

Ethanol boils at 78.5C (173F) - and even heating the sample at all would 
evaporate SOME of the ethanol.

As I said, I haven't tried this yet, but I've heard of people using a 
blender/milkshake-maker to stir the begeezus out of the beer/wort to remove 
all the bubbles. Depending on the stage of fermentation this will create a 
lot of bubbles, but these will dissipate and at least you'll get an 
accurate reading.

Hope that helps
Stuart Grant
Hobart, Tasmania, Australia.



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Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 09:18:14 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: pumpkin ale

Clayton,

I'll make a couple of suggestions on your brew.  First, you might want 
to consider reducing your spices to about 1/4 of their current level and 
add them in the last 5 minutes of the boil.  The flavors are going to be 
different in a beer than in your pie, mostly because you're going to 
boil them.  I would say a 1.5t of "pumpkin pie spice" would be plenty in 
5 gallons.  Brewing with spices is tricky.  Better to add too few at the 
start and "spike" the secondary fermenter with more than to add a ton 
upfront and wish you hadn't.

Second, yer in a heap of trouble with that pumpkin!  In order to get the 
real pumpkin flavor out of the meat you really have to mash it with 
grains that have enzymes in order to convert the pumpkin meat (which has 
starches and sugars) into fermentable sugars.  I have always roasted the 
pumpkin meat, mashed it up (like potatos), and converted it with about a 
pound of grain (regular pale malt works fine) per 3lbs of meat.  I 
tossed some suggestions out in a post to the HBD a few years back 
http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/3851.html#3851-28

You may want to search the archives some more, but this link hits the 
high points.  If you just boil the pumpkin you're going to get a starch 
haze in your beer, although you certainly will get pumpkin flavor. 
 Don't know if you'll get what you're after.

You also may want to consider using a little less than half of the maple 
syrup as priming sugar.  You'd have to figure out the gravity of the 
starting syrup and calculate how much to add to prime the beer.  Some 
online sources state the gravity of maple syrup must be 66 Brix 
(approximately 1.264 in terms of specific gravity).  Since this means 
that the syrup is about 66% sugar and you would need about 3-4oz of 
sugar to prime 5 gallons of beer, use about 6-7 ounces (by weight) of 
the syrup to prime.

Enjoy!
M

- -- 

Marc Sedam
Chapel Hill, NC




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Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 06:29:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com>
Subject: Aeration using dried yeasts

Dr. Cone addressed this issue in the "fortnight of
yeast."  Reference the Danstar FAQ page:
http://consumer.lallemand.com/danstar-lalvin/beerfaq.html

"Active Dry Beer Yeast has built into it, at the
factory, a very high level of fatty acids that makes
it less susceptible to the problems of insufficient
aeration. This is true for the first inoculation
only."

Hope this helps

Michael
Columbia, MO

=====
"May those who love us, love us.
And those that don't love us,
May God turn their hearts.
And if he doesn't turn their hearts,
may he turn their ankles
So we'll know them
by their limping."



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Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 08:40:11 -0500
From: MOREY Dan <dan.morey at cnh.com>
Subject: sulfites

Unless you are getting your fruit directly from the vineyard, they have
probably been treated with sulfites to prevent fermentation/spoilage during
shipping.  As for the juice, check the packaging.  The juice I bought last
year was sulfated.

Check the pH of the must and use the minimum level of sulfite to suppress
wild yeasts and bacteria.  Sulfites added after the crush to control wild
yeasts will diminish over time.  Skip sulfites at bottling, as these take a
long time to dissipate.  For additional information, I recommend Jeff Cox's
book From Vines to Wines.

Cheers,

Dan Morey
Club B.A.B.B.L.E.  http://hbd.org/babble
[213.1, 271.5] mi



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Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 09:57:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: Denise Graham <sndg at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Visiting Vancouver

I'll be visiting Vancouver for a weekend workshop next month. I would
appreciate any pointers for good beer bars and brewpubs that are in the
Stanley Park area or are accessible by public transportation. Pointers to
good places to buy bottled beer (and recommendations of beers that I might
not be able to find in Florida) are also welcome.

I'll be happy to summarize any responses that I receive...

Thanks in advance,
Denise
[1159.9, 169.3] Apparent Rennerian



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Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 07:05:33 -0700
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: Re: Gravity samples, decarbonating

From: Christopher Swingley
>Next, I put the samples in the microwave, each for a minute and a half.  
>When removed they were bubbling slightly and had reached 180 F (not 
>boiling).  

My guess is that some of the ethanol evaporated out of solution.  

A better way to decarbonate is to simply shake the sample at room
temperature.  Do this a number of times and let sit in between shaking
bouts.  Pick a protocol and stick to it.  For example, shake 60 seconds,
then let stand 5 miutes.  Repeat 3 times.  Measure SG.  

Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152  phone
(206) 782-6766  fax
Seattle, WA
demonick at zgi dot com
http://www.primetab.com



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Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 11:27:47 -0400
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: re: calories

Dave Burley notes ...

>based on extremely limited [...]
>data  from early in the 20th century.

Yeah - just like relativity and organic chemistry.

 -S



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Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 12:35:05 -0400
From: "Joe Berardino" <misbrewhaven at hotmail.com>
Subject: Commercial Beer Additives

The other day while I was at my local HBS, I got into a discussion about
commercial beer & wine and the preservatives used in them. The guy that
I was talking with stated that Budweiser uses formaldehyde in their 
products.
I was speachless when I heard this and thought surely they wouldn't put such
a thing in somthing you would consume?! The guy that runs the HBS seemed
to agree with the other fellows statement. Is this true? I would hate to 
think
that I have drank the very same substance that is used to preserve dead 
people.
This may be nothing more than one of those "urban legend" type of things BUT
based on what tabacco companies have done in the past to their products, I
guess I really shouldn't be all that surpised in what they might put in beer 
to
preserve it, stabalize the foam.,etc. Still the *even the thought* of this 
sickens
me to say the very least (every time I get handed a bud all I can think of 
is dead
people..yuck!!)  Just one more reason to keep on brewin' -- all natural, 
with no
preservatives or artifical flavors! ;^)

Joe B.

"Leading the swill drinkers to the light one homebrew at a time."



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Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 14:25:43 -0400
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: re: Aereation of wort

Kenneth Peters notes ,

> http://consumer.lallemand.com/danstar-lalvin/danstarrehyd.html 
> [...] states that aeration of the wort is not necessary.
> This seems to fly in the face of all that I have read in the past.

Yeast only *need* O2 for the production of sterols and UFAs.  *IF* the
yeast in a dry packet are already in a state where all the precursors have
been converted to sterols and UFAs then there is no need for additional
O2 in the wort.

Boulton &| Quain, two UK brewery researchers, developed a patented
system at Bass which grows starters under very well aerated conditions.
They stop the aeration when they measure some yeast metabolic
parameters which indicate the yeast have no further O2 requirement.
They then hold the starter very cold and pitch it into unaerated wort.
This system has been tested on production size runs at Bass w/o any
problems. 

If Lallemand grows their yeast with loads of O2 it's entirely possible that
wort aeration is unnecessary.  Maybe Rob Moline can dig up the Lallemand
specific answer

===

Personally I would aerate anyway when using dried yeast.  My concern
is that a single packet in 5 gallons is not a very generous pitching rate,
and you may need some additional growth from the yeast than if you
pitched at a high rate.  Maybe a weak attempt at aeration around 6
hours after pitching would be in line with yeast needs.

 -SteveA



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Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 14:25:29 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Pumpkin Ale, bubbles tiny bubbles

Brewsters:

Clayton asks for comments on his prospective Pumpkin Ale.

First, since you have no problem with extract use why not just open a can of
pumpkin for pies and use that?  Lots easier for the first time.

I don't know if  canned pumpkin has pectin but if it does, include a little
pectinase as I always do, just in case, for any fruit or vegetable beer.  Put
it in the fruit or vegetable puree alone for about an hour or longer and then
add it at the boil to the wort and the pectinase is destroyed and won't affect
the protein in the wort.  Others may have had no problem getting clarity
without pectinase, I don't know.

Secondly, Do not ever pour hot wort into your fermenter and especially not
through a cheese cloth or other filtering device. Aeration will kill you.  Be
sure you chill the wort first.  The quicker the better.

Use whole leaf hops if you can.To remove your wort from your hops, whirlpool
the wort and the hops will collect in the middle. Siphon from the edge of the
quiet wort boiler. I also use a Choreboy copper scrubber ( no soap!) on the
but do not block the exit of the fluid.

Maple syrup will not give you a sweeter beer.  If you want that sort of taste,
brown sugar will give you the same taste of caramelized sugar but a lot
cheaper.  Dark Crystal malts like a 120 L will also give you that caramel
taste.  Crystal malt in the US and Germany are called Caramel for that reason.

If you want a sweeter taste use lactose added usually after fermentation so
you can judge the correct amount.  Also consider some of these maltodextrin
powders to give that sort of "sweet" taste.

Since the first Pumpkin Ale I ever had was in a British pub ( amazing to me at
the time, this was a real Ale Pub) in celebration of Halloween decades ago, I
am forever measuring Pumpkin ales against that wonderful brew.

I therefore recommend that you NOT use an American Ale yeast, but a fruity
British Ale yeast like Wyeast Britsh Ale III.  Other fruity ale yeasts may
fill the bill if your penchant is for dried yeasts. BAIII may need a little
rousing by racking to a second carboy after a week or so, but the effort is
worth it and you will get the beer off the organic detritis from the pumpkin
and allow it to finish.
- ---------------------
Christopher, measuring a beer several weeks after the end of the fermentation
is not the same as using the hydrometer to judge if a fermentation is
finished.  Bubbles on the hydrometer do affect the reading.  I'd try a quick
boil, covered,  to degas, cool and compare your results.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley




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Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 14:34:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Gregory D. Morris" <gmorris at literati.com>
Subject: kegging question

Quick question:
Say I brewed a batch of beer, that after racking/etc came out
to be around 3.5-4 gallons.  I want to keg it in a 5 gallon
keg.  I know there is a problem with having too much oxygen on
top of the beer.  What I'd like to know is, would it be ok to
blow CO2 through the liquid valve on my ball-lock keg, and let
air out of the gas valve?  Would this work?

Also, while I'm at it, does anyone have any good ideas for seasonal
(autumn/winter) beers?  I wanted to brew a few beers for this winter.

- --
Gregory Morris
Web Developer
Literati
(304) 296-8026 ext.139
gmorris at literati.com






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Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 15:17:06 -0400
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: re: Concentration of gelatin in yeast slant

Robert Jones asks,

>I made up my media using 1 cup of 1040 wort and 2 packets of knox
unflavored
>gelatin.  This made a nice firm slant, but after seeing many recipes they
>call for only about half that much.
>
>Are there negative effects from using gelatin at this higher concentration?
>For example, will it slow their growth, or should I just not worry?

Don't worry - you want a firm gel.  The only problem with the thick rubbery
gelatin is that it's harder to clean out of the tubes & bottles.  Better too
thick than too thin.

>One last question - judging the progress so far, I don't think it will
cover
>the surface of the slant within a few more days (1 week total at room
temp).
>Should I just refrigerate what I have, or let it sit another week at room
>temp?

If you have a decent area covered with healthy growth, fridge them in a few
days.  If the surface covered is very small you can give it more, but it's
likely you'll have to re-inoculate or make up a new slant.

The very nice thing about gelatin is that it's cheap and readily available.
The trouble with gelatin is that it does not  absorb water once set, and
that some yeast and many bacteria will eventually release enough protease to
turn the gelatin into liquid mush.  Also you can't heat sterilize the mix
since that ruins the gel (denatures the proteins).

When you chill the slant you'll inevitably get some internal
evaporation/recondensation moisture and the gelatin won't reabsorb this.
You might store the slants upside down to prevent any free droplets from
hitting the yeast.

Agar is a bit harder to come by and costs more. Oriental food stores and
sometimes health food stores carry it in various forms.  These all work
well, but the granulated agar from the laboratory suppliers is easier to
dissolve and get a good plate surface IMO.  Agar forms a carbohydrate-gel
that reabsorbs moisture and is not subject to protease liquefaction.  You
can also heat-sterilize the agar w/o ruining it's gelling ability.

 -S



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Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 16:12:38 -0700
From: "Parker Dutro" <pacman at edwardwadsworth.com>
Subject: The Chocolate Stout

I am in the mood to brew a nice thick, dark chocolate stout for the
approaching winter.  Rogue Chocolate Stout will be my inspiration in
regards to recipe design.  Anyone familiar with this beer will
understand why.  I have specs and ingredient list, but one ingredient in
particular is in question.  The Chocolate.  Rogue uses "natural
chocolate flavoring" and John Maier is such a purity and quality freak
that I am sure the "natural chocolate flavor" is in fact natural.  So I
am wondering about experiences of anyone here that has brewed a stout
using any form of chocolate.  I understand using a chocolate bar or
other form of chocolate with cocoa butter and/or other oils may be
detrimental to head retention and body, so I am leaning towards using
unsweetened cocoa for just that underlying hint of cocoa.  I don't want
a dessert beer, here, just a bitchin' thick stout singing a soft
chocolate song.  Thanks for replies.

Parker Dutro
Portland, OR 

"To every man, in his acquaintance with a new art, there comes a moment
when that which before was meaningless first lifts, as it were, one
corner of the curtain that hides its mystery, and reveals, in a burst of
delight which later and fuller understanding can hardly ever equal, one
glimpse of the indefinite possibilities within."  C.  S.  Lewis






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Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 22:53:07 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <jethrogump at mchsi.com>
Subject: Gump on Aereation of Wort

			Gump on Aereation of Wort

     Mr. Peters,
     You are now engaged in a discussion of practical vs.
theoretical....easily workable vs. optimal. And no O2 is easily workable
with the Lallemand yeasts. That's why they enjoy the success that they do.

     In my practice as a brew-pub brewer, I always oxygenate my chilled wort
on it's way to the fermenter. And if it's the second brew of a double batch,
I oxygenate that as well....up to 24 hours.....
     Guess I have to call Tobias tomorrow, but I also stir!
     Perhaps we are experiencing a gap between most users, and subscribers
to the HBD?

Cheers!
Gump

Rob Moline
Lallemand

> Kenneth Peters notes ,
> > http://consumer.lallemand.com/danstar-lalvin/danstarrehyd.html
> > [...] states that aeration of the wort is not necessary.
> > This seems to fly in the face of all that I have read in the past.
>
> Yeast only *need* O2 for the production of sterols and UFAs.  *IF* the
> yeast in a dry packet are already in a state where all the precursors have
> been converted to sterols and UFAs then there is no need for additional
> O2 in the wort.
>
> Boulton &| Quain, two UK brewery researchers, developed a patented
> system at Bass which grows starters under very well aerated conditions.
> They stop the aeration when they measure some yeast metabolic
> parameters which indicate the yeast have no further O2 requirement.
> They then hold the starter very cold and pitch it into unaerated wort.
> This system has been tested on production size runs at Bass w/o any
> problems.
>
> If Lallemand grows their yeast with loads of O2 it's entirely
> possible that
> wort aeration is unnecessary.  Maybe Rob Moline can dig up the Lallemand
> specific answer
>
> ===
>
> Personally I would aerate anyway when using dried yeast.  My concern
> is that a single packet in 5 gallons is not a very generous pitching rate,
> and you may need some additional growth from the yeast than if you
> pitched at a high rate.  Maybe a weak attempt at aeration around 6
> hours after pitching would be in line with yeast needs.
>
> -SteveA
>
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