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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  RE: Titles at the table ("Brian Lundeen")
  Las Vegas Water; S.Cal HB Shops (John Palmer)
  Water ("A.J deLange")
  Upgrading All-Grain System ("Weaver Joseph T MAJ CENTAF-AUAB CAOC\\SG")
  Re: Water analysis suggestions to improve mash ("Dave Draper")
  Re: Water ("Andy and Tina Bailey")
  Re: Water analysis suggestions ("Britt Weiser")
  WLP830 German Lager Yeast (susan woodall)
  Regarding Thermometers and Temperature controllers (Ken Meyer)
  Loathing the water in Las Vegas ("Martin Brungard")
  Re: HB Shops in Anaheim CA? ("nephi polder")
  HBD Server Fund Benefit Auction! ("Pat Babcock")


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Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 23:08:40 -0600
From: "Brian Lundeen" <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: Titles at the table

David Houseman writes:
> 
> Only the style/sub-style (and in the case 
> of special categories) should any ingredients be given to the 
> judge and never the name of the beer.  Names of the beers 
> could give subtle and subconscious messages to the judges. 

Judges DON'T see the name of the beer?!! Well, I guess that explains why my
"50 point Porter", "World's Best Wit", "First Place Pale Ale" and "BOS
Barleywine" haven't been doing as well in competitions as I had expected
them to. Sigh, I guess I'll have to resort to old-fashioned methods for
winning comps. Like buying a $3000 brew system, and sticking with liquid
yeasts. ;-)

Cheers
Brian, in Winnipeg



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Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 22:18:18 -0800
From: John Palmer <jjpalmer at altrionet.com>
Subject: Las Vegas Water; S.Cal HB Shops

Andy asks about suggestions for his Las Vegas brewing water for mashing.
Here is his water report data:
Temp hardness    131 ppm
sodium                84 ppm
chloride                71.5 ppm
sulfate                224 ppm
calcium                74 ppm
magnesium         28.6 ppm
pH                         7.9
Total dissalved solids     614 ppm
total hardness               302 ppm

But what is missing is the other half of the equation - the alkalinity 
or bicarbonate concentration. Without the alkalinity, there is not 
enough data to determine how the water will behave in the mash, and it 
is nearly impossible to calculate what salt additions to make to 
replicate another city's water. Of course, there is a caveat here: the 
pH is 7.9, so you can attempt an ionic balance to estimate what the 
bicarbonate concentration is, and you would probably be in the 
ballpark. Probably easier to take another look at the report or call 
the city public works department to find out.

Be that as it may, if Andy likes to brew British ales, I would say he's 
there. There is no need to remove the temporary hardness, you can use 
that mineral content to your advantage. The sulfate concentration is 
good too.

***
Keith asks where all the brewshops are in and around Anaheim.
There is:
Beach Cities Homebrew in Costa Mesa (beachcitieshomebrew.com)
Brewers Rendezvous in Downey (bobbrews.com)
O'Shea Brewing Co. in Laguna Niguel (osheabrewing.com)
Steinfillers in Long Beach (steinfillers.com)
Beer, Beer, & More Beer in Riverside (morebeer.com)

More than you would think within a half hour drive, eh?
Good Brewing,
John

John Palmer
john at howtobrew.com
www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer
www.howtobrew.com - the free online book of homebrewing



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Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 13:43:23 +0000
From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Water

The following water analysis

Temp hardness    131 ppm
sodium                84 ppm
chloride                71.5 ppm
sulfate                224 ppm
calcium                74 ppm
magnesium         28.6 ppm
pH                         7.9
Total dissalved solids     614 ppm
total hardness               302 ppm


doesn't tell us the most important brewing parameter which is the 
alkalinity but we can guess that it is about 268 from the other 
numbers. This would give a residual alkalinity of almost 200 which is 
the real problem with this water even for British beers (to which you 
are pretty much limited by the large sulfate content). Decarbonation by 
boiling should work and yes, you need to decant the water off the 
precipitate or in particular make sure the precipitate doesn't get into 
the mash tun, at least, as letting it in would be like adding chalk to 
your mash and totally defeat the decarbonation. Of lesser importance is 
that over time carbon dioxide from the atmosphere will dissolve in the 
water and cause some (but not all) of the precipitated chalk to go back 
into solution. It is not necessary to decant immediately. The 
redissolution takes some time.

Adding phosphoric acid probably isn't the greatest idea as you can 
overshoot easily as you note (so be sure to use a pH meter and stop 
adding when the water reaches a pH around 7) and it will also strip out 
most of the calcium some of which you want to keep in there. You are so 
heavy in sulfate and chloride that you don't want to add either 
additional gypsum or calcium chloride. (Note that the boiling above 
will leave plenty of calcium and magnesium). Other mineral acids 
(hydrochloric or sulfuric) would probably be better bets but these 
will, obviously, increase sulfate or chloride depending on which you 
choose. If acid addition is to be considered perhaps lactic would be a 
good choice but it will flavor the beer. IMO the best source of acid is 
dark grains.

Obviously dilution with an equal volume of RO water cuts all the 
numbers in half but it still leaves 100 ppm as CaCO3 residual 
alkalinity which is still a bit high. 3 parts RO water to 1 part tap 
water gets the RA down around 50 which is easier to deal with, still 
leaves plenty of calcium and gets the sulfate and chloride down to the 
point where you could supplement the calcium with gypsum or calcium 
chloride without getting too much of either of those anions.

Using all RO and building up the mineral profile is clearly the best 
option in terms of the control and flexibility it lends. Dilution with 
RO water is probably the simplest.

A.J.



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Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 17:50:47 +0300
From: "Weaver Joseph T MAJ CENTAF-AUAB CAOC\\SG"
Subject: Upgrading All-Grain System

Fellow Homebrewers,
I'm sitting over here in the desert wishing I was homebrewing.  I've decided
it's time to upgrade my 5 gallon labor intensive system when I return home
this spring.  

I can't imagine brewing 10 gallons at a time.  I just can't drink that much
beer.  I've been checking out brew kettles at SABCO, Northern Brewer, and
More Beer.  Presently, I boil in a 7.5 gallon SS bargain brand kettle
without a valve which means using an immersion chiller and a sanitized Pyrex
measuring cup and funnel to transfer to the carboy...time consuming and
labor intensive.  

It's time for a kettle with a valve, a hop back, and a counterflow chiller.

Tell me about ball valves and quick disconnects.  I've seen mention of 3/8
inch or 1/2 inch ball valves with a barbed outlet.  I've seen a choice
between brass or plastic disconnects.  I don't have a brew sculpture or
designated brew bench...I assemble and disassemble between brews. 

Should I go with barbed outlets and use silicone hose between the kettle,
hop back, and chiller, or should I use quick disconnects?  

Do I have to use a pump with hop backs?

Are there any particular kettle, hop back, chiller combinations that work
well together?

Todd in Qatar
Formerly Todd in Idaho (Todd in Turkey 2 years ago)







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Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 07:53:15 -0700
From: "Dave Draper" <david at draper.name>
Subject: Re: Water analysis suggestions to improve mash

Dear Friends,

In #4412 Andy in Las Vegas asks about treating his water of a given 
analysis and lists a few options for dealing with it.  Andy, I always use 
your Option One (starting with RO water and adding salts to match 
the desired target) anymore, I just find it far simpler and faster to 
treat the "blank slate" of RO water to get what I'm after. I have the 5-
gal water-cooler plastic bottles and our grocery has the RO machine 
right there next to the frozen aisle, so it's very convenient and it's 
worth the extra four bucks for the convenience IMO.

Cheers, Dave in ABQ
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
David S. Draper, Institute of Meteoritics, Univ New Mexico
David at Draper dot Name
Beer page: http://www.unm.edu/~draper/beer.html
Don't pick your nose. ---Domenick Venezia






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Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 07:35:04 -0800
From: "Andy and Tina Bailey" <atmlobailey at cox.net>
Subject: Re: Water

Great response, and thanks for the insite. I will likely start using more RO
water than the 50-50 I did last time. Also, where I labled "temporary
hardness" should have said alkalinity (it IS labled as alkalynity in my most
recent water analysis but I thought the terms were interchangeable)  So at
least the water isn't as bad as it could be.

Perhaps I will just start using all RO water and building it up from there.

Anyone know what is the going rate for an adequate RO system?

Thanks for the response.

Andy


> doesn't tell us the most important brewing parameter which is the
> alkalinity but we can guess that it is about 268 from the other
> numbers. This would give a residual alkalinity of almost 200 which is
> the real problem with this water even for British beers (to which you
> are pretty much limited by the large sulfate content). Decarbonation by
> boiling should work and yes, you need to decant the water off the
> precipitate or in particular make sure the precipitate doesn't get into
> the mash tun, at least, as letting it in would be like adding chalk to
> your mash and totally defeat the decarbonation. Of lesser importance is
> that over time carbon dioxide from the atmosphere will dissolve in the
> water and cause some (but not all) of the precipitated chalk to go back
> into solution. It is not necessary to decant immediately. The
> redissolution takes some time.

> stuff deleted from A.J.s original post to save space

> Using all RO and building up the mineral profile is clearly the best
> option in terms of the control and flexibility it lends. Dilution with
> RO water is probably the simplest.
>
> A.J.
>



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Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 09:49:51 -0600
From: "Britt Weiser" <weiser at net66.com>
Subject: Re: Water analysis suggestions

> Andy and Tina Bailey writes:
>
> I am looking for some recommendations to alter the mineral content of my
> local water to make it more suitable for all grain brewing. I live inLas
> Vegas and the most recent available water anaylsis follows:
>
> Temp hardness    131 ppm
> sodium                84 ppm
> chloride                71.5 ppm
> sulfate                224 ppm
> calcium                74 ppm
> magnesium         28.6 ppm
> pH                         7.9
> Total dissalved solids     614 ppm
> total hardness               302 ppm
>
> Other than the temp hardness, it doesn't look that bad. ( I prefer to brew
> british beers )
>
> I have considered the following:
>
> 1) use all RO water and add all of the minerals I to replicate target
water
> 2) dilute the tap water 50/50 with RO water and adjust the mineral content
> 3) add calcium choride, boil the tap water to remove much of the temp
> harndess. My question with this option is, do I really need to decant off
> the precipitate, or is the precipitate harmless once it has been taken out
> of solution?
> 4) adjust the tap water with some of my 30% food grade phosphoric acid
> (downside is that since this is so strong it can be very easy to add too
> much)

Andy,

I think you're in great shape with the above water analysis.  My water has
146 ppm bicarb with a pH of 9.2.  As long as I make sure my calcium is at
least 75-100 ppm, I haven't had any trouble with my mash getting to the
desirable pH of 5.2-5.5.

If your mash pH doesn't come down to the desired range, then I would
recommend adding acid to get original water to a neutral pH (6.8), and then
mash.  Also, I would recommend adding acid to your sparge water to get it
below pH of 6.  I take my sparge water to pH of 5.8.

I'm not sure, but the sulfate level may make it difficult to brew a soft,
malty beer.  You may want to experiment by diluting your water with RO
water.

If you're brewing malty beers, you may want to add 1 teaspoon of CaCl.  By
my calculations, this would add 43 ppm Ca and 89 ppm Cl.  If you're brewing
hoppy beers, you may want to add 1/2 - 1 teaspoon of gypsum.  1 t would add
approx. 50 ppm Ca and 107 ppm SO4.  Keep in mind brewing books say a Sulfate
level greater than 450-500 ppm can give excess bitterness.

Britt Weiser
Champaign, IL



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Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 08:59:46 -0800
From: susan woodall <woodsusa at moscow.com>
Subject: WLP830 German Lager Yeast

can anyone give me any advice or their perspective on WLP830 German 
Lager Yeast.  What are this yeasts flavor characteristic and profile?



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Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 11:38:51 -0600
From: Ken Meyer <keno5 at wi.rr.com>
Subject: Regarding Thermometers and Temperature controllers

For those with a handy streak who aren't afraid of a soldering iron I 
have found this link invaluable.
http://hbd.org/mtippin/thermometer.html
I have used the information from this web page to build my own 
thermometer several temperature controllers for a refrigerator and a 
chest freezer and also incorporated it in the temperature controller of 
my RIM system.  Most of the parts can be obtained from Radio Shack and 
for folks like me who like building the equipment as much as brewing the 
beer this is a great way to go.

Ken



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Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 09:26:27 -0900
From: "Martin Brungard" <mabrungard at hotmail.com>
Subject: Loathing the water in Las Vegas

Andy asks for options for brewing water adjustments for the water in Las 
Vegas.  Andy is almost correct in stating that "Other than the temp 
hardness, it doesn't look that bad".  The other thing that concerns me is 
the high magnesium and sodium content.

Andy says he considered several options for water adjustment, but I have to 
recommend that dilution with RO water is probably the way to go for most 
brewing styles.  The existing water does look OK for use as a "Burtonized" 
water.

Andy considers using all RO water and adding minerals as needed.  This is 
always an option, but not necessary in all cases.  The 50/50 dilution is a 
pretty good suggestion for many brewing styles.  The other suggestions that 
Andy proposes, boiling with decanting and acid addition, are possibilities 
for addressing the alkalinity problem.  But, they don't address the other 
mineral excesses.

The existing water has a slightly high residual alkalinity (RA) of 61.  That 
makes it a little unsuited for pale beers.  An acid addition takes care of 
that.  My calculations show that it will take 2.5 tsp of 30% phosphoric to 
bring 5 gal of sparge water to pH 5.3.  It only takes 0.17 tsp of that acid 
to neutralize the alkalinity in about 2.5 gal of mash water.  One of those 
graduated medicine droppers is just the ticket for gauging acid additions.

Diluting the existing water with 50% RO water does a world of good for this 
water.  The diluted water has ion concentrations of: Ca = 37ppm, Mg = 14ppm, 
Na = 42ppm, Sulfate = 112ppm, Cl = 36ppm, and Bicarb = 79ppm.  The RA drops 
to about 30.  It will only take 1.25 tsp of the phosphoric to treat the 5 
gal of sparge water to pH 5.3.  A miniscule .06 tsp of the acid will 
neutralize 2.5 gal of mash water.  With the low RA, I wouldn't bother with 
any mash water pH adjustments.  The mash should take care of itself.

I've only been to Las Vegas a few times.  I'm surprised that I didn't notice 
the minerally nature of the water there.  I guess I was drinking other stuff 
there ;-)  Its my understanding that most of the city's water comes from the 
Colorado River.   I would have expected a lower degree of mineralization for 
a surface water source, but I guess its a long river!  I hope to be back in 
Las Vegas this summer for some Beer and Loathing.  I'll be sure to taste the 
water then.

Martin Brungard
Tallahassee, FL



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Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 14:27:51 -0800
From: "nephi polder" <nefipoda at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: HB Shops in Anaheim CA?

Keith,
You'll find a directory of homebrew shops at the Brew Your Own website 
(www.byo.com).  The home page has a homebrew supply directory link for the 
whole country.  I've found it is up to date for the LA area.  You're in 
between three shops I know of, at about a half hour drive each.  My favorite 
is Stein Fillers in Long Beach.
Nephi



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Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:02:32 -0500
From: "Pat Babcock" <Pat.Babcock at hbd.org>
Subject: HBD Server Fund Benefit Auction!

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Glenn Raudins generously donated two sets of his Classic Brewing and
Distilling Series (back when it was only three books) to the HBD as a fund
raiser. These sets sold for $85.00 each, and are no longer available as a
set - they can only be purchased individually, or as part of the larger,
4-book set. Until NOW - and just in time for Christmas!

These two sets of Glenn's spectacular, handsomely bound historical reprints
are now available for you to bid upon on ebay. They make a great Christmas
gift for yourself or your brewing friends, and I can personally attest that
they look GREAT on any bookshelf! Each set contains:

  The Complete Practical Brewer, 1852, by M.L. Byrn
  The Complete Practical Distiller, 1875, by M.L. Byrn
  The Town and Country Brewery Book, circa 1830, by W. Brande

The auction on these fine publications commences at 12:00am, Tuesday,
12/02/2003 and will run for a week, this to allow those who can only read at
work a fair chance!. The following URLs will take you to their listings once
the auction has commenced.

<http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2363191535>
<http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2363190507>

As an added bonus, the proceeds from these auctions go directly to support
the HBD Server Fund - what a better Christmas gift? A gift for you or your
brewing friend, and a donation to the HBD all at once? Ah! It just makes me
giddy with the Holiday Spirit!

- --
 -
God bless America!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor at hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
[18, 92.1] Rennerian
"I don't want a pickle. I just wanna ride on my motorsickle"
                                   - Arlo Guthrie



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