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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Process Control ("Brendan Oldham")
  RE:  Scorching Mash (Bill Tobler)
  Schwarzbier/Beer to try in Germany/Diets (David Harsh)
  re: Schwartzbier (Chet Nunan)
  RE: Fermentation chamber; Reverse RIMS ("Steve Jones")
  Boiling HLT ("Patrick Hughes")
  Chocolate Saison (darrell.leavitt)
  Schwarzbier ("Mark Kellums")
  mother of vinegar (Alan McKay)
  grain steeping? (Dan)
  Re: Schwarzbier (Rama Roberts)
  Last oops of the year (Pat Babcock)
  Link of the week Dec 13th (Bob Devine)


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Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 00:48:56 -0700
From: "Brendan Oldham" <brendan_oldham at hotmail.com>
Subject: Process Control

If you're interested in control and measurement systems (iow, if you take
mashing a little too serious), I recently found a PDF on Honeywell's website
entitled 'Fundamentals of Industrial Instrumentation'. As a non-scientist, I
found explanations of process characteristics and controls (including PID)
interesting.
Warning: File is quite large 32MB and site registration required.
>From www.honeywell.com, follow links below:
Automation & Control Products
Industrial Measurement and Controls
Literature Finder
Other IM&C Products
General & Sales Literature
Fundamentals of Industrial Instrumentation (downloadable for free).
P.S. Be forewarned, after spending hours learning about this stuff, I
realized that my PID controller's self-tune function provided precise enough
control for my needs. Proceed only if you're curious!
Boulder, CO


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Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 07:45:53 -0600
From: Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE:  Scorching Mash

Yesterday, Thomas said;

Hi all
i have been thinking about this for a while.
We use JSP's EasyMasher for a couple of years now with very good
results. When i stir enough during the heating periods, i have no
scorching. But the EasyMasher looks a bit twisted after some use.
I was thinking about a electric stirrer, but this wouldn't work
with the EasyMasher....snip

Thomas, check out the link below to Jack's web site.  He uses an electric
mashmixer, and likes it a lot.  He gives details on how to build your own,
but does not sell them.

http://schmidling.netfirms.com/mix.htm

Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX
(1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian






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Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 09:12:54 -0500
From: David Harsh <dharsh at fuse.net>
Subject: Schwarzbier/Beer to try in Germany/Diets

Greetings-
	Several things with a quick $.02

On Schwarzbiers-
	I travelled to Germany last summer and was amazed that many local 
schwarzbiers do not have nearly the roast character of a Klostritzer.  
In fact, many could easily be confused with a dunkles - no significant 
roasted character.  I was really surprised that none of these beers 
were nearly as dark as Klostrizter either.  Interestingly, the beers 
were labeled "schwarzbier", but if you wanted one you ordered a 
dunkles.  I guess the Germans don't make quite the distinction that we 
do.

Someone asked about what beers to drink in Germany-
	On the aforementioned trip, I stuck to whatever was made in the local 
town.  Every city had its local brewery and all the beers were fresh 
and well made, typically weizen or schwarzbier.   Where was I?  
Heidelberg, Erbach, Ulm, Rothenburg ob der Tauber, Meersburg, 
Schonwald, Bacharach, Miltenberg.  Took two days into Alsace and can 
only tell you that this is not an area where beers are the dominant 
beverage!  My official description of the local brew in Ribeauville was 
"inoffensive".
Somewhere (actually in the box with the pictures I took), I have a list 
of what I drank with some tasting notes - if you have any interest, 
contact me offline and I'll dig it out.

On diets-
	I always pay attention when someone tells me about their great new 
diet.  Everyone I know who is or has been on the Atkins is eating less. 
  These are people who I know well and its pretty obvious that they are 
restricting their caloric intake.  Either that or they've started a big 
exercise program.  I haven't read any peer reviewed literature about 
diets, and do think the basic premise behind the Atkins seems sound.  
And lets be honest, if it works for someone, great.  It just seems like 
some combination of "eat less and exercise" is always part of the 
equation.  I guess everyone's mileage may vary....

Enjoy the holidays!

Dave Harsh						Bloatarian Brewing League
Cincinnati, OH



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Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 08:11:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Chet Nunan <katjulchet at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Schwartzbier

I recently bought some Dingeman's de-bittered black
malt to experiment with - anyone know how this
compares to the Carafa?  I was planning on cold
steeping 1/2# for a 5 gal. batch.  Thanks!

Chet



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Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 11:55:48 -0500
From: "Steve Jones" <stjones1 at chartertn.net>
Subject: RE: Fermentation chamber; Reverse RIMS

Thanks for the plug on my Fermentation chamber, Martin. Glad
to hear someone else has utilized the concept (though you
already told me at the NHC). I did have to replace the
fridge, though, but the one I started with was very old and
I knew the compressor was on its last legs when I bought it
(it had one of those hard-start thingies on it). My new one
has been going strong for over 2 years now.

On reverse RIMS, I remember several years back a file or two
(powerpoint, I think) that Micah Millspaw put together on
this concept. I think I have a copy of the files at work,
but I don't want to infringe on any implied copyrights, so
will not extract any info from them for posting without
permission from Micah. Hopefully Micah will respond and make
it unnecessary for me to do so. I had given some thought to
experimenting with this concept myself, though using a HERMS
instead. I thought of adding a pair of ball valves to the
mash tun, one just above the false bottom, and another just
below the lowest expected liquid level, with elbows on the
interior pointed in opposite directions. I'd use the top one
as the supply, and return it to the lower one, setting up a
circular motion within the mash. I don't see a problem with
letting some of the grain get into the system, but you could
put a SureScreen(TM) on the top one to prevent grain influx.

Or, how about putting a coil in your mashtun and circulating
hot water thru it to heat your mash? Sort of the reverse of
a HERMS design but not recircculating the mash (RHEMS)? This
would totally avoid the compaction problem, and you could
even employ some kind of manual or powered stirring
mechanism to help with heat transfer. I developed some
problems with CTD several years back that was aggravated by
manually stirring my mashtun. I built a vertical stirring
mechanism out of 1/2" copper tubing, spacing several tees as
close together as I could for the depth of the mashtun, with
tubes about 6" long soldered into them such that they were
staggered about 20 degrees apart in a spiral fashion. I
flattened each of these at about a 30 degree rake angle, and
the top of the assembly goes thru a 1 x 2 oak slat. At the
top is an elbow, a 4" piece horizontally, another elbow, a
6" vertical piece, and an end cap. This serves as a crank
style handle to rotate it with much less effort than
stirring with a spoon. I stabilized the lower end by putting
a stud in the false bottom that the stirring mechanism fits
over, sticking up into the end of the tubing. You can vary
the length and/or the spacing of the flattened tubes to
avoid pickup tubes, thermometer stems, etc that protrude
into the mashtun. Stirring draws the mash up thru the center
of the coil, and down around the outside of the coil. You
could use an extra SS kettle lid with the stirring mechanism
permanently mounted, adding either a gear motor or a pulley
system.

Just some thoughts - I've not done any actual design on
anything other than the stirrer.

Steve Jones
Johnson City, TN [421.8, 168.5] AR
http://hbd.org/franklin




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Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 10:14:07 -0600
From: "Patrick Hughes" <pjhinc at eriecoast.com>
Subject: Boiling HLT

Dan Morey is considering keeping his HLT at boiling to achieve rapid rest
changes in a HERMs system. Won't this denature the enzymes that pass thru
the heat exchanger? I have been worrying that my method of keeping  the HLT
around 170 - 180 to achieve  rapid ramp times is damaging to the enzymes or
at the very least screwing up my wort composition by widely varying the wort
temp  that I am shooting for although the temp of the mash itself winds up
where I want it. I have been brewing [ more like an ongoing experiment] with
HERMS and have been monitoring the temp. at different points in the system.
Even at a fairly fast flow rate the wort exiting the heat exchanger is 1 -3
deg. F. of the HLT. I am going to move in the opposite direction that Dan is
suggesting now placing an inline thermometer at the coil output and keeping
the HLT as close as possible to my desired step temp. Sacrificing speed and
eliminating multi steps to achieve consistent and stable mash temps. I
insulate my tun and have checked different spots in the mash repeatedly to
find only a 1 deg F. difference in top to bottom of the tun if any and some
of that difference  comes from me taking the lid off and monkeying around
with it. I am inclined to lean more toward the school of thought that
multiple mash steps are unneccssary with the malts I buy off the shelf. And
after reading Noonans work; accurate, consistent, and stable mash temps are
what can really make the difference in wort composition.Maybe I am worrying
too much, but I am not pleased with my beer and I need to keep looking for
ways to improve.
Patrick Hughes





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Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 09:40:15 -0500
From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: Chocolate Saison

There has been some discussion of Chocolate Ales on the HbD lately, so I 
thought I would take the opportunity to share a Chocolate Saison recipe 
that I just sampled, and that I felt tasted rather good.

Chocolate Saison:

six pounds 2 row (Golden Promise) Malt
one pound Fawcett Brown Malt
one pound Chocolate Malt
one pound Wheat Malt
two pounds Fawcett Dark Crystal
two pounds CaraPils Malt
two ounces Lactose (sugar of milk)

Single step infusion (at the higher end, around 158F) for 1.5 hr
Mashout.

First runnings were 1.070
Boil Gravity was     1.055
Og was                    1.064
Fg was                    1.013
%ABV was             6.7%

Yeast was 4th use of WhiteLabs  Saison

2 hour boil.

Hops were:  2 oz EK Goldings at start of last 60
                     .25 oz Fuggles at 30
                     .50 oz Fuggles at 15
[IBUs were about 41]

One halfof the batch went into a PartyPig ,as is.

The other half went into bottles with a small amount of Licorice Extract.

The regular Chocolate Saison (in the Pig) tastes wonderful.

The Licorice Saison, to me, tastes good as well but one needs to like 
licorice.

Happy Brewing!

and

Happy Holidays!

 ...Darrell


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Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 10:52:01 -0600
From: "Mark Kellums" <infidel at springnet1.com>
Subject: Schwarzbier

Hello,
I just  happened to have made my first schwarzbier this past November. For a
five gallon batch I used 12oz de-bittered black malt, 8oz Carafa II, 8oz of
medium crystal, and munich malt for the rest of the bill. Wow, I have to say
it turned out fantastic. The glass I  had last night had notes of chocolate,
expresso, somewhat sweet and malty. It's very smooth. I highly recommend the
de-bittered malts.

For the record I  hopped w/ homegrown Vanguard, fermented w/ the Whitlelabs
833.

Mark Kellums
Decatur Il.



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Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 12:05:16 -0500
From: Alan McKay <amckay at neap.net>
Subject: mother of vinegar

I've never made malt vinegar, but I've made lots of fermented
dill pickles and sauerkraut (details on my website).  For anyone
who would like to make malt vinegar but cannot find the Mother,
you can simply make your own with cabbage or cucumbers.  Both
of them have acetobacter naturally living on them, which is why
both can be made to spontaneously ferment in kraut and dills.
In my batches I get a thick film of Mother of Vinegar on the
top of the bucket, and this can be skimmed for malt vinegar.

For making pickles and kraut I learned that salt content is
quite important to the health of the acetobacter.  There is
a certain concentration they prefer : 8 cups water to 1/2
cup pickling salt.

Question for "-S". 

It seems one does not add salt to malt vinegar.  Could this
be why it takes so long to ferment?  My pickles and kraut
take 2-4 weeks quite reliably.  And you mentioned that the
malt vinegar takes several months.

Also a note to folks not to use any plastic for both beer
and pickles/kraut/vinegar.  Personally I wouldn't even use
the same glass but I'm paranoid.  Also do not store the two
together.  Otherwise you could be making a lot more malt
vinegar than you really want ;-)

cheers,
 -Alan 

- -- 
http://www.bodensatz.com/
TCP/IP: telecommunication protocol for imbibing pilsners
        (Man-page of Unix-to-Unix beer protocol on Debian/GNU Linux)


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Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 13:24:50 -0500
From: Dan <dan at zlater.net>
Subject: grain steeping?

A simple question....
I was wondering, when I make my extract brew, and I steep crushed grain 
in a grain bag should I squeeze the grain bag or just brew with what's 
in the pot?

Thanks,
Dan S



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Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 14:02:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Rama Roberts <rama at sun.com>
Subject: Re: Schwarzbier

Keith has more questions about schwarzbier.

Serendipitously, I just brewed a slightly bastardized version yesterday,
(using steam beer yeast to mimic lagers in my ale-only system).
I'm just catching up to this thread, but agree with everyone on the use of
carafa.

> I'd probably add some Munich malt for character.

That's what I did. And a little caramunich.

> What percent of the grist should the Carafa be?

Promash told me to add 3/4# to my 6 gallon batch to reach the right
Lovibond.

> Would a cold water extraction of black malt successfully tone down the
> roastiness or am I going to need to break down and locate the real
> thing?

I wouldn't try it, unless you're not adverse to producing something more
porter-esque. This was my first schwarzbier, and my first time using
carafa, but I think that grain *defines* this beer. I ate a few grains,
and its flavor is uniquely scharwbier to me.

Here's my recipe. Its still in primary, so I don't know how accurate this
will be- but at least its one more point of reference:

8# domestic 2 row (should really be pilsner to be accurate)
2# munich
1# caramunich 60
 .75# carafa

2oz hallertauer mittelfruh, 4.5AA

Single infusion mash at 150F, batch sparged, first wort hopped.
Color and aroma were both good, hopefully my choice in yeast works out.
I can follow up after it cellars if there's interest.

- --rama



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Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 21:39:05 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Last oops of the year

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

I've just rebuilt a rather important section of the HBD system
after it was accidentally whacked. All should be in order, but,
just in case you suddenly find yourself reading the HBD ont eh
web rather than in your mailbox, you might need to resubscribe.
Particularly if you had just subscribed between 12:00 am
Saturday and 9:30 pm Sunday...

- -- 
 -
God bless America!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor at hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
[18, 92.1] Rennerian
"I don't want a pickle. I just wanna ride on my motorsickle"
                                   - Arlo Guthrie




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Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 20:10:27 -0700
From: Bob Devine <bob.devine at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Link of the week Dec 13th

[This is from last week but it got rejected by the HBD filter
due to an non-ASCII chararacter.  So, imagine that O:l is
spelled with an umlaut...]

Have you brewed an ale recently?  If you ever wondered where the name
came from, it is derived from the Swedish word for beer or ale. O:l is
pronounced something between "ohl" and "uhl".

Find out more about Swedish beers at the Swedish Homebrewers Association
including some recipes at:
http://www.shbf.se/
http://www.shbf.se/eng.index.php (English version)

If your Swedish is a little rusty and the above link is hard to read, 
try this
very detailed introduction to Swedish brewing and beers.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~patto1ro/swedintr.htm

Bob Devine



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