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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  re: Boiling HLT (John Schnupp)
  Anchor Xmas and Sugar in Liqors.......... ("David Craft")
  HERMS or SMREH? ("Houseman, David L")
  Counterflow HERMS (MOREY Dan)
  re: mother of vinegar ("-S")
  Merry Christmas ("Fred Scheer")
  Canned Wort, cont. (Don Van Valkenburg)
  Kegging (David)
  DOH! (Alan McKay)
  Good Book ("Lee and Ant Hayes")
  Re: grain steeping? (Scott Alfter)
  corn, sorghum beer (MOWAGNER)


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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 01:17:48 -0800 (PST)
From: John Schnupp <johnschnupp at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Boiling HLT

From: "Patrick Hughes" <pjhinc at eriecoast.com>
>Dan Morey is considering keeping his HLT at boiling to achieve rapid rest
>changes in a HERMs system. Won't this denature the enzymes that pass thru
>the heat exchanger? I have been worrying that my method of keeping  the HLT
>around 170 - 180 to achieve  rapid ramp times is damaging to the enzymes or
>at the very least screwing up my wort composition by widely varying the wort
>temp  that I am shooting for although the temp of the mash itself winds up
>where 

I know I'm certainly not as qualified as some on this list to speak about thing
like enzymes, however a nice little analogy did pop into my head and I thought
I'd share it.  Maybe someone like -S can set me straight if I'm way off base. 
I don't post a whole lot but to read.

It is thru reading posts from -S and others that I've learned that enzymes are
hardy little things.  There is also no magic on/off temp switch for them.

If you were told to build a house in a 120degF desert could you do it?  Sure.
Would you die?  Eventually if you didn't have water, food and shelter but it
would take a while.
Could a native from the desert do it faster? Probably.

What about the cold?  Say somewhere in the Canadian tundra.  Same questions,
same answers.

Sure you could die at -20degF or 120degF, but if you stepped outside you nice
cozy 70degF house into one of these extremes you wouldn't be killed instantly.

So it goes with the enzymes.  Sure they work best in their optimum temperature
ranges but just because they get exposed to higher or lower temps doesn't mean
they are all instantly turned off.

=====
John Schnupp, N3CNL
??? Hombrewery
[560.2, 68.6] Rennerian
Georgia, VT
95 XLH 1200, Bumblebee



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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 06:16:34 -0500
From: "David Craft" <chsyhkr at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Anchor Xmas and Sugar in Liqors..........

Greetings,

Has anyone tried to clone this years Anchor Our Special Ale?  I have gotten
close to past years versions.  This year has the incredible taste of
slightly overcooked ginger cookies or spice cake.  Wonderful!  Much better
than in past years.

Also has anyone figured the sugar content of liquors such as Framboise or
Creme de Cacao?  I have a nice Stout fermenting and wanted to bottle some
of it with Framboise and Creme de Cacao.  Would this be enough sugar to
also carbonate, to much?  Any experiences are appreciated.

David B. Craft
Battleground Brewers Guild
Crow Hill Brewery and Meadery
Greensboro, NC



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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 09:03:55 -0500
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: HERMS or SMREH?

While brewing this weekend and using my CFC and seeing my old immersion
chiller that maybe this would make an interesting heating element.  I have
used a RIMS; as understand the HERMS, the wort is pumped through a copper
coil immersed in a hot water bath that's at the step temperature.  But as I
was adding boiling water to my mash to raise the temperature I thought maybe
it would work to put the immersion chiller in the mash and pump boiling
water through it.  One would have to stir the mash (mashmixer) to ensure
that the heat is distributed and that the wort in contact with the copper
wouldn't get too hot.  But I do that anyway when adding boiling water to
raise mash temperatures (don't ask; sometimes I have to do it this way
rather than use the RIMS or directly heated mash).   The control would be on
the pump.    So this isn't a traditional HERMS but it is similar, only the
water moves rather than the wort -- a reverse HERMS.   Thoughts?

Dave Houseman


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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 10:03:09 -0600
From: MOREY Dan <dan.morey at cnh.com>
Subject: Counterflow HERMS

Unfortunately, I didn't explain my concept very well.  I'll try to better
explain the idea.  Like Jay Spies, I have been considering using a
counterflow heat exchanger in a HERMS type design.  I'll get into the
reasons for the counterflow heat exchanger later.

Basically, my concept is just step infusion mashing.  Boiling water is used
for the infusion, since temperature control will occur naturally and the
temperature is known (212F or 100C, variation due to pressure can be taken
into consideration).  No need for at HLT controller!

All this can be done without a fancy _R_MS, so why bother with
complications?  Heat loss from the mash will result in decaying rest
temperature.  At home brewing scales due to the large surface area to volume
ratio on the mash vessel, there is a significant amount of temperature drop
in the mash.  Even at 1/2 barrel batch size, it is significantly higher than
a 7 barrel commercial system.  Either the thermal conductivity of the mash
vessel must be decreased (increase resistance) or energy (heat) must be
added to the mash to maintain temperature.  I could use an insulated cooler,
but I'm a stainless steel snob (I admit it - I know excellent beer is made
in coolers, it just my preference).  My current mash tun is wrapped with
insulation, but it is not as good as a cooler.  Thus I need to add
energy/heat to the mash.  There are several ways to do this but I believe
the HERMS concept provides the most benefit with fewer potential problems.

Since my idea is to combine step infusion with HERMS, I could just add a
standard HERM set-up.  However, this would require another HLT with
temperature control.  I already have the tank of boiling water, why not use
this?  This can be done is two ways:

1.  heat exchanger in HLT, i.e. a heat exchanger with constant wall
temperature.  It can be viewed as a counterflow chiller with "infinitely"
high mass flow on the water side.  When wort is cooler, more heat transfer
will occur.  To control the heat transfer, one must control wort flow.
2.  an external heat exchanger (counterflow), where temperature will vary
along the length of the heat transfer surface.  By control the flow of the
hot water, one can change the affectivity of the heat exchanger.  By slowing
the flow, the available energy to heat the wort is limited.

I am leaning to a counterflow chiller for the following reasons:

1.  I believe it will be easier to control hot water flow rather than wort
flow.  Differences due to grain bill (mash side restriction).  Also, with
the boiling bath, too high of flow rates maybe required which could lead to
grain bed compaction.
2.  Because the water is boiling, a smaller heat exchanger can be used.  My
thought is a straight tube in tube set-up, perhaps a few inches long.
Similar to the sample chiller the 3B sells.  I still need to go through the
calculations to determine the correct size.
3.  Since the counterflow chiller will be small and "straight," periodic
manual cleaning will be easy with a brush.
4.  Since the exiting temperature of the wort would be monitored, a
controller can be used to control hot water flow.  If wort flow changes
during the mash, the control could compensate.

In summary:

It is still step infusion mashing, with a counterflow heat exchanger to
maintain temperature.  To step between rests, boiling water is directly
pumped into the mash vessel to raise the temperature.  It is not ramped
using the heat exchanger.  Heat transfer is controlled by throttling hot
water flow, not wort flow.  Small heat transfer surface to prevent
overheating wort.

I hope this gives you a better idea of my concept.  Any feedback and ideas
to improve it are welcome.

Cheers and Merry Christmas,

Dan Morey
Club B.A.B.B.L.E.  http://hbd.org/babble
[213.1, 271.5] mi



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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 11:46:51 -0500
From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
Subject: re: mother of vinegar

Alan McKay

>I've never made malt vinegar, but I've made lots of fermented
>dill pickles and sauerkraut (details on my website).  For anyone
>who would like to make malt vinegar but cannot find the Mother,
>you can simply make your own with cabbage or cucumbers.

Well I expect to hear that slap on the forehead and Homer Simpson "Doh" from
across the northern border shortly.  Alan of course confused LACTObaccili
used to make pickles, sauerkraut and yogurt with ACETObacteria which produce
vinegar.

Sauerkraut has a succession of infections, much like a lambic beer,
beginning with some we'd normally consider coloforms and ending with a
crescendo of lacto-bacteria.    Aceto-bacteria don't usually make the
textbook lists for sauerkraut.

>For making pickles and kraut I learned that salt content is
>quite important to the health of the acetobacter.

The lactos don't require the salt at all but they can tolerate it and also
lower pH than most bacteria.  The salt in kraut acts to burst and pull the
cabbage cell contents out in a limited way, so there is something for the
bacteria to live on.  In addition the salt represses the less osmotolerant
bacteria in kraut, and this prevents it from tasting too "lambic".   Too
little salt and the kraut tastes funky, not sour enough as the lactics never
dominate.  Too much salt and the kraut gets real limp and gooey (breaks too
many cells) and also the kraut gets too sour as there are more carbos to
ferment.

>Question for "-S".
>
>It seems one does not add salt to malt vinegar.  Could this
>be why it takes so long to ferment?

The organisms, the source medium, the concentrations and the resulting acids
are entirely different - so the times are too.  Lacto fermentation does not
require free oxygen as acetic fermentation does and that's a rate limiting
issue in acetic ferments.

> [[[ ... pellicle ...]]]

Many lactos also produce extracellular carbohydrate gels  in excess, but for
lactos these are often "boogery" strings hanging into the medium rather than
a pellicle as for acetic acid.  Some lactos do form a pellicle but it's not
a 100% thing as for acetic bacteria.

> Personally I wouldn't even use the same glass but I'm paranoid.

I feel comfortable sanitizing  glass and stainless,
but I wouldn't share plastics on a bet.

> Also do not store the two
> together.  Otherwise you could be making a lot more malt
> vinegar than you really want ;-)

The wild lacto fermentation in kraut  probably include Pedios and such and
are probably a better source of brewery infection than a pure acetic
culture.  Both involve potential dangers in the brewery.

 -S




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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 13:31:47 -0500
From: "Fred Scheer" <fhopheads at msn.com>
Subject: Merry Christmas

HI:
I would like to wish all of you a Merry Christmas
and a Hoppy New Year.


Fred Scheer

"Hopfen und Malz"
  Gott erhalts



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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 10:58:58 -0800
From: Don Van Valkenburg <brewing at earthlink.net>
Subject: Canned Wort, cont.

More on the thread about canned wort. 
First, regarding pressure cooking -- I have been simply steaming the 
entire jar, lid and wort with great success for many years now.  Some 
times I have not even gone that far.  I would simply draw off some 
boiling wort into a clean canning jar, screw on the lid and allow to 
cool.   Then whenever I needed wort for a starter, I could simply pop 
open a jar of caned wort and add yeast.  A piece of plastic wrap and 
rubber band would work quite nicely as air lock.   On one recent post I 
saw some one say they decant into a flask.  Why?  You have to sterilize 
one more container.  The canning jar is already sterile. 

But the real test has been the lone jar that has been on the shelve now 
since Sept. 1995.   The lid is still sealed and the dome is still down 
(concave on top) indicating that nothing is growing inside.

Regarding Rob Dewhirst's post about getting clear wort; don't worry, 
have a homebrew - the trub in the jar is good stuff like protens that 
will help your starters and eventually drop out of your final beer.


Test continuing------

Don Van Valkenburg
www.calferm.org



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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 11:15:51 -0800
From: David <jdlcr at flash.netdex.com>
Subject: Kegging

Dear HBD'rs,
   Just got my kegging system up and running. As most of you say, I ain't
gonna need them bottles any more. I got a Frigidaire chest freezer, so the
posts recently about the life span of these was interesting.
   A bit of an off brew question. I am also just force carbonating water and
am wondering If I use the carbonation tables, for say a wheat, to properly
carbonate and make seltzer. Or- is there a chart for non-beer (soda and the
like) carbonation I can go to?

Happy holidays to all,
David Brandt
Cloverdale, CA 


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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 14:45:07 -0500
From: Alan McKay <amckay at neap.net>
Subject: DOH!

Did that echo loudly enough?

;-)

Thanks for the correction, -S


- -- 
http://www.bodensatz.com/
TCP/IP: telecommunication protocol for imbibing pilsners
        (Man-page of Unix-to-Unix beer protocol on Debian/GNU Linux)


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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 22:13:14 +0200
From: "Lee and Ant Hayes" <anleo at worldonline.co.za>
Subject: Good Book

"Beer -The Story of the Pint" by Martyn Cornell (ISBN 0-7553-1164-7)
published this year, is a great read. If you believe that Ralph Harwood
invented porter, or that George Hodgeson came up with a special recipe for
IPA, this book will give you the full picture.

It is very well written, and well researched. The bibliography is full, and
quotations are correctly attributed. Where the author is unsure, he makes it
clear. It stands apart from many other beer related texts which are quite
happy to quote conventional wisdom, without proper referencing.

I found my understanding of the origin of beer styles greatly enhanced by
the book. What a great book.

Ant Hayes
Gauteng; South Africa



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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 14:14:21 -0800
From: Scott Alfter <scott at alfter.us>
Subject: Re: grain steeping?

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 at 13:24:50 -0500, Dan <dan at zlater.net> wrote:
> I was wondering, when I make my extract brew, and I steep crushed grain 
> in a grain bag should I squeeze the grain bag or just brew with what's 
> in the pot?

The recommendation I heard is that you can suspend the bag over the pot
(flop it over your spoon) and let it drain out for a bit, but squeezing the
bag can pull out tannins and/or other undesirable substances.  (Besides, a
bag full of grain that's been sitting in ~150-degree water is a bit too hot
to handle!)

  _/_   Scott Alfter (address in header doesn't receive mail)
 / v \  send mail to $firstname at $lastname.us
(IIGS(  http://alfter.us/            Top-posting!
 \_^_/  rm -rf /bin/laden            >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?




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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 23:01:57 -0300
From: MOWAGNER <mowagner at speedy.com.ar>
Subject: corn, sorghum beer

First of all I beg your pardon if my english is not very good, my main
language is spanish.
I'm an argentine Hbrewer, living in Buenos Aires.

Here my question:
I'm dealing with a project trying to produce beer for celiac people.
1) For that reason I'm studing the way to add enzimes to the mash trying to
compensate a low Diastiasic power for malted corn or sorghum.
I'm reading papers on Chicha beer and African sorghum beer, and I need to
find a correlation between amount of enzimes to be used with respect a
certain amount of starch. I'm thinking in amiloglucosidasa (it breaks 1-4
links) and amilosa.
2) Wich is the relation between Diastasic Power in barley malt and the
amount of enzimas ?
3) Wich is the relation between Diastasic Power in barley malt and the
convertible starch?

Private answers are OK

Thank you in advance and have an excelent 2004, enjoy with your family next
Christmas.

Mauricio Wagner
Buenos Aires
Argentina







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