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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Reversing output of Temperature Controller ("Brendan Oldham")
  Malty but Dry (Gunnar Emilsson)
  Sorghum Beer ("Lee and Ant Hayes")
  Counterflow HERMS ("Todd M. Snyder")
  HERMS/controller question (bruce.dir)
  Counterflow HERMS - Heat Exchanger Sizing (MOREY Dan)
  RE: Kegging ("Ronald La Borde")
  Re: Chest Freezers (David Towson)
  Re:  HERMS or SMREH? (MOREY Dan)
  Ale Sweedish? ("Chad Stevens")
  RE: Enzymes, corn, sorghum beer (Steve Funk)
  Kegging Seltzer ("Chip Stewart")
  re: Canned Wort (Rama Roberts)
  Why all the 'unusual' recipes lately? (NO Spam)


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Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 05:14:22 +0000
From: "Brendan Oldham" <brendan_oldham at hotmail.com>
Subject: Reversing output of Temperature Controller

I've got an old (analog? certainly not digital!) temperature controller 
(110v 18a heat output) that I use to keep my beer warm during the winter 
months. Anyone know if there is an easy (cheap) way to reverse the output, 
iow cool (using a fridge) instead of heat? Could I get some reverse-acting 
relay or switch?  It would have to be 110v all around. If possible, could I 
do for less than cost of another temp controller?



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Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 21:36:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Gunnar Emilsson <cdmfed_emilsson at yahoo.com>
Subject: Malty but Dry

I know I am a little late to answering Dave Draper's
question a few weeks ago, and many other posters have
offered up some sound advice. I particularly plan on
following Jim Busch's suggestion to use a highly
attenuative German lager yeast with a high proportion
of Munich malt.  Using 30-70% Munich malt has always
seemed to work best for me.

I didn't notice a lot of mention of the one single
variable that has helped me achieve a malty but dry
beer. That variable is time.  I mean a lot of time. 
For example, the 1.060 O'fest I brewed in March using
the Saflager yeast still tasted sweet in October.  But
now, two months later, it has dried out considerably. 
The odd thing is that when these beers dry out, they
don't turn into gushers - the carbonation level stays
the same.

Another odd thing about high percentage (30-70%)
Munich beers is they just keep getting better with age
 - drier and maltier. Yet my all-Munich beers get a
vegetably aroma and flavor after aging, without ever
getting to that magic threshold.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Gunnar Emilsson 
Helena, Montana

=====
Gunnar R. Emilsson, P.G., P.E.
CDM Federal Programs Corporation
28 North Last Chance Gulch
Helena, MT 59601
phone (406) 495-1414 x302  fax (406) 495-1025
email:  emilssongr at cdm.com



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Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 15:12:43 +0200
From: "Lee and Ant Hayes" <anleo at worldonline.co.za>
Subject: Sorghum Beer

Mauricio Wagner was asking about African sorghum beer and artificial
enzymes. I can't answer your specific questions, but have worked a lot with
sorghum:

1. Sorghum beer, no matter how it is produced tastes nothing like barley or
wheat beer. Sorghum has a wild taste more similar to rye. (It's great once
you have acquired the taste). SAB have produced a clear sorghum beer, which
looks like Castle - but still tastes like sorghum.
2. I have tasted sorghum beer produced the traditional way, and produced
using artificial enzymes. Much like a gueuze, the traditional way wins every
time. It produces a murky sour creamy smoky brothy like drink - great on a
hot African day.

Ant Hayes
South Africa






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Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 10:04:48 -0500
From: "Todd M. Snyder" <tmsnyder at buffalo.edu>
Subject: Counterflow HERMS

Hi Dan,

<In summary: It is still step infusion mashing, with a counterflow heat
exchanger to
maintain temperature.  >

If you just want to to maintain mash tun temperature, could you wrap the
mash tun with a few loops of copper tubing and reinstall the insulation?
Sort of a quicky jacket system. That would only require one pump to
circulate HLT water instead of two.

Todd



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Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 10:22:12 -0600
From: bruce.dir at TAP.com
Subject: HERMS/controller question

I have been following the many posts about PID's and the placement of your
sensor on a RIMS system.  Now that Dan and others have brought HERMS into
the discussion, I thought I would pose a thermocouple placement
question....yet again!!

I have a newly designed HERMS, of  which I will thank the countless many
"Recirculating Mash" type system posts and websites available to use
tinkering types...I have truly read them all to create my own bastard
child.  :    ).   I am having issues of my own trying to get everything
working the way I conceived  with the PID controlling 2 solenoids, but that
is not my reason for writing.  As a rsult of the recent threads on
controllers and placement of temperature sensors,  I am thinking about
changing my temp sensor from the outlet manifold side of my Mash tun to the
outlet side of the HLT.  Before I rebuild the manifold (inlet/outlet and
valves) I want to pose this question of HERMS users.

I would get quicker, more accurate reading temp at the outlet of the heat
exchanger and can minimize overshoot, this I agree.  With my HERMS, when I
hit my target (or the high setting of the proportional band) my second
output (tracking the first) will open the bypass valve, closing and thus
bypassing the Heat exchanger.  The wort is now going straight from the
bottom of the mash tun and crossing the sensor .  Because the sensor is now
reading cooler temperatures from the bottom of the grainbed, the PID will
switch back and send back through the heat.  This will either cause
overshoot or confuse the hell out of valves.

Any thoughts on how to minimize excessive wear on the valves.   How have
you set your cycle times on your PID to allow the mash temp to "catch up"
or will that even work?.  Any ideas would be welcomed.

Happy Holidays
Bruce Dir




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Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 10:32:06 -0600
From: MOREY Dan <dan.morey at cnh.com>
Subject: Counterflow HERMS - Heat Exchanger Sizing

I went through the heat exchanger sizing calculations last night for my
current mash tun.  Over the last couple years, I have recorded the decay in
mash temperature vs time on several batches.  Using the lump capacitance
model, I have been able to characterize my mash tun.  My system has a UA
product (U = overall heat transfer coefficient and A= Area) of 2.285 W/C or
0.0722 Btu/(minF).  To maintain the mash at 70C (158F) with a room ambient
of 20C (68F):

Q = UA * dT = 2.285 * (70 - 20) = 114W

For the hat water loop at a low flow rate (0.0315 l/s or 0.5 gpm), the
following temperature change would occur:

114 = 0.0315 l/s * 0.958 kg/l * 4217 J/kgK * dT

dT = 0.9C hot water temperature drop through heat exchanger.

Using the wort properties from Martin Brungard's RIMS Heat Equation post
(Digest #4429), I assumed 2qt/lb liquid to grist ratio with 1.5 gpm flow
rate (0.0945 l/s):

114 = 0.0945 l/s * 1.058 kg/l * 3776 j/kgK * dT

dT = 0.3C wort temperature rise through heat exchanger.  Even if flow was
dropped to 0.5 gpm, wort temperature rise would only be 0.9C.  Thus
overheating the wort and deactivating enzymes is not a concern.

Thus the inlet and outlet condition for the heat exchanger sizing problem
are:

T hot in = 100C and T hot out = 99.1C
T cold in = 70C and T cold out = 70.3C

Standard copper tubing sizes:  3/8" inner tube (0.5" OD and 0.402"ID) and
5/8" outer tube (0.75" OD and .652" ID).  Wort flows through the 3/8 pipe
and hot water between the 5/8 and 3/8 pipe.  The outer tube must be
insulated to minimize heat transfer to the ambient air.

Several calculations and correlations are involved in the sizing, so I will
not detail these.  They require Reynolds, Prandtl, and Nusselt numbers,
hydraulic diameters, viscosity, kinematic viscosity, and thermal
conductivity of the fluids.  I did not have all of these properties, so I
had to make some assumptions.

For this condition (70C in 20C room, with 1.5 gpm wort flow and 0.5 gpm hot
water flow) the calculated length is 69 mm.  Increasing hot water flow to 3
gpm reduces the required length  to 37 mm.  

The size required to maintain mash out 76.7C in a -6.7C ambient (191W heat
requirement) with maximum hot water flow (5 gpm):

Wort flow rate:		Length
0.5 gpm or 0.032 l/s	5.1"  or ~129 mm
1.0 gpm or 0.063 l/s	3.25" or ~83 mm
1.5 gpm or 0.095 l/s	2.5" or ~63 mm

As suspected, the required heat exchanger is small.  This example does not
consider the heat loss due to the additional plumbing for the circulation
loop.  So it will need to be larger than calculated.  I not sure it is worth
the trouble.  Perhaps I will build a 130 mm model to experiment with.

Dan Morey
Club B.A.B.B.L.E.  http://hbd.org/babble
[213.1, 271.5] mi




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Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 10:36:41 -0600
From: "Ronald La Borde" <pivoron at cox.net>
Subject: RE: Kegging

>From: David <jdlcr at flash.netdex.com>
>
> A bit of an off brew question. I am also just force carbonating
water and
>am wondering If I use the carbonation tables, for say a wheat, to
properly
>carbonate and make seltzer. Or- is there a chart for non-beer (soda
and the
>like) carbonation I can go to?

I have carbonated some water by using a 2 liter plastic coke bottle
and the carbonator cap. As I remember, I needed much more pressure and
shaking to get the desired carbonation, but it went well, and as a
result the carbonated water was quite good.

I carbonated some bottled water, some tap water, and tried a few
flavors. The bottled water was much better than the tap water, could
really tell a difference in taste with the bottled water much cleaner
tasting.

When in Czech republic we had some "Good Water", that's the English
language translation of the name (Dobra Voder). It was lemon flavored
and my wife and me really liked it. Have not been able to find
anything as good anywhere else. I tried lemon juice but still not as
good as Dobra Voder.

By the way, the best most fantastic potato chips I ever had were also
from Czech republic. They sure know how to make good stuff (and the
beer too).

Ron
=====
Ronald J. La Borde -- Metairie, LA
New Orleans is the suburb of Metairie, LA
www.hbd.org/rlaborde





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Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 11:44:36 -0500
From: David Towson <dtowson at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Chest Freezers

In HBD 4430, Paul Sullivan is concerned about his chest freezer failing.

I live in a high-humidity area, and I once had a chest freezer that I kept 
in the garage, where it got a good dose of outside air.  It would gradually 
ice-up inside the insulation, which was some sort of batting rather than 
plastic foam.  As the ice built up, the insulating quality would gradually 
diminish until the compressor was running constantly, and losing.  After 
being shut off for a while, the freezer would discharge a big pool of water 
onto the floor, as the ice in the insulation melted.  If I put a heater 
inside and let it bake the chest for several days, I could get the thing 
dried out, and then it would be okay for a while again.

Paul might want to try shutting-down for a week to see what happens, as he 
may be having a similar problem.

Dave in Bel Air, MD



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Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 11:10:01 -0600
From: MOREY Dan <dan.morey at cnh.com>
Subject: Re:  HERMS or SMREH?

David suggests:

>>> I thought maybe it would work to put the immersion chiller in the mash
and pump boiling water through it. One would have to stir the mash
(mashmixer) to ensure that the heat is distributed and that the wort in
contact with the copper wouldn't get too hot. But I do that anyway when
adding boiling water to raise mash temperatures (don't ask; sometimes I have
to do it this way rather than use the RIMS or directly heated mash). The
control would be on the pump. So this isn't a traditional HERMS but it is
similar, only the water moves rather than the wort -- a reverse HERMS.
Thoughts? >>>

I think this idea can work for maintaining mash temperature.  I wouldn't
rely on it to ramp the mash temperature between rests.  It is a more
difficult sizing problem.  Need to characterize the external flow.  Natural
convection could be significant.  Experimentation maybe the best way to
determine sizing in this arrangement.  It is worth a try in my opinion.

Cheers,

Dan Morey
Club B.A.B.B.L.E.  http://hbd.org/babble
[213.1, 271.5] mi





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Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 09:15:00 -0800
From: "Chad Stevens" <zuvaruvi at cox.net>
Subject: Ale Sweedish?

> Bob Devine wrote:
>
>If you ever wondered where the name (ale)came from, >it is derived from the
>Sweedish word for beer or ale. >O:l is pronounced something between "ohl"
>and "uhl".

Bob; Bob Bob Bob....(repeat again while shaking head from side to side).  No
self-respecting Norwegian can let this one go.  Old Norse "ol" (o with a
line through it) is used to indicate both the drink and the festivity.
Festivities are so closely associated with beer they are known as ol (ale)
and include Gravol (a wake
or funeral), Barnol (a christening) and Taklagsol (a barn-raising or
roofing).  Obligatory ale feasts include: November 1 - Winternights,
December 25 - Yule, and June 24 - Midsummer.

Jens Maudal, any input?

Evidence of Norse ale culture's influence on the English is found in Beowulf
(the tale written in Old English in the 11th century about Norse adventures
which took place in the 6th century)--

"Wealhtheow, Hrothgar's queen now made her appearance according to courtly
custom. Adorned with gold, she greeted the company in the banqueting hall.
The noble lady first presented a goblet to Hrothgar. She bade him enjoy the
revels, upon which the king gladly took part in the sumbel. Then Wealhtheow
the Helming princess visited every corner of the hall, tendering the
jewelled cup to veterans and the younger men."

This later became the English "symbel" tradition of toasting in rounds.

Going back to the bronze age, there is a long tradition of Norse Berserkers
drinking strong ale before going into battle.  The German's have nothing on
the Norse with regard to early beer legislation.  Gulatingslov, the 8th
century Norse legal code included an entire chapter on brewing for the
midwinter festivities in January.  This code required Yuleol be made with
extra malt for sheer alcoholic strength.

Oegir, Norse brewer of Asgard, is linked to Scottish myth and considered the
God of Ale.  "From his hall ale flowed as water from spigits bright came
they gold liquor."  Aegir, presumably a derivation of Oegir, was the
Anglo-Saxon God of the sea to whom human sacrifice was made in order to calm
the seas (and to keep those nasty Norseman at bay).

The Norse raided Galloway Scotland as early as the beginning of the 9th
century.  Norsemen settled there in the middle of the same century. Norse
rule ended in 1057AD, when Malcolm Canmore married Ingibjorg, the widow of
Thorfinn Skullsplitter, the Norse ruler of Galloway (you can read more about
this period of Scottish History - which also served as a background to
Shakespeare's Makbeth- in Wylie's History of the Scottish Nation (1886)
which is found online).  Galloway is famous as the mythical birthplace of
"Heather Ale" (and ale in general in the UK)--

>From the bonny bells of heather
They brewed a drink long-syne,
Was sweeter far than honey,
Was stronger far than wine.
They brewed it and they drank it,
And lay in a blessed swound
For days and days together
In their dwellings underground.

This strong heather ale appears consistent with the yuleol/berserker
tradition brought to the UK by the Norse.

And I could go on and on.  The point is, there's a whole host of evidence
linking the English word "ale" to the Old Norse "ol."  I couldn't let the
modern Sweedish "ol" get all the credit.

Uffda!

Chad Stevens (Steenerson-Settingsgard)
QUAFF
San Diego

America's Finest City Homebrew Competition
www.quaff.org/afc2004/AFCHBC.html



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Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 09:16:05 -0800
From: Steve Funk <steve at hheco.com>
Subject: RE: Enzymes, corn, sorghum beer

Mauricio Wagner asks about enzymes for adjuncts with low diastasic 
power.  I would suggest you contact Novozyme as they manufacture and 
sell such enzymes.  I am using their products but unfortunately not for 
a brewing related project.  NAYYY.
- -- 
Steve Funk
Stevenson, WA

Splice the url back together
http://www.novozymes.com/cgi-bin/bvisapi.dll/
solutions/solutions.jsp?cid=-10017&id=11539




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Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 14:31:27 -0500 (EST)
From: "Chip Stewart" <Charles at thestewarts.com>
Subject: Kegging Seltzer

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 00:49:41 -0500, David Brandt inquired about kegging:
> . . .I am also just force carbonating water and am wondering If I use
> the carbonation tables, for say a wheat, to properly carbonate and make
> seltzer. Or- is there a chart for non-beer (soda and the like)
> carbonation I can go to?

David -

After 6 months of having my brews on tap, I noticed I was picking up a
bit of weight (not that I want to resume that old topic).  As a partial
solution, I put a seltzer on tap to alternate with the brews, and it
helped quite a bit.  To accomplish this, I set my regulator to 30-35 psi,
and run the line to a "T".  I then run one leg of the "T" to the seltzer
keg, and the other to an inline regulator that drops the pressure to about
12 psi for the beers.  I got my inline regulator from the Lowe's air tool
department as a temporary fix about 3 years ago (so much for temporary)
and it's worked quite well.  SWMBO likes the seltzer at about 30 psi, and
I like just a little more fizz at about 35.

Chip Stewart
Hagerstown, Maryland, USA
Charles at TheStewarts.com
http://Charles.TheStewarts.com/brewing

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Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 12:00:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Rama Roberts <rama at sun.com>
Subject: re: Canned Wort

Don Van Valkenburg writes:

> On one recent post I saw some one say they decant into a flask.  Why?
> You have to sterilize one more container.  The canning jar is already
> sterile.

If you pitch directly into the canning jar, that was previously boiled
then immediately canned, there will be very little oxygen. Oxygen is
critical to yeast development. By decanting, if nothing else, you're
providing a bit of oxygen.


> But the real test has been the lone jar that has been on the shelve now
> since Sept. 1995.   The lid is still sealed and the dome is still down
> (concave on top) indicating that nothing is growing inside.

I would lean towards agreeing with you that its still sterile, but I
wouldn't count on a concave top as an indicator that nothing is growing
inside. Maybe there are some infections that don't produce gases as a
byproduct. What say you, microbiologists?


> Regarding Rob Dewhirst's post about getting clear wort; don't worry,
> have a homebrew - the trub in the jar is good stuff like protens that
> will help your starters and eventually drop out of your final beer.

I used to leave the trub in my starters too, but stopped because it makes
it harder to monitor yeast activity. Watching how much yeast has
precipitated helps gauge a couple things: flocculance and vigorousness-
both of which I like to know prior to pitching so I know what to expect in
my beer. A variation in starter (from previous experience) could mean a
contaminated starter, or less vigorous yeast.

- --rama



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Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 16:46:58 -0500
From: NO Spam <nospam at brewbyyou.net>
Subject: Why all the 'unusual' recipes lately?


I'm just curious as to why all these requests
are coming up for recipes using off the wall
grains like sorghum, and all the gluten free
stuff?  

Is this because of all the people who are on
the Atkins diet?  

Bill



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