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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Yeast Culturing in Baby Jars (Alexandre Enkerli)
  Re: Brumalt/Melanoidin/Honey Malt (Wes Smith)
  Brewing with rain water (was: Brewin In The Bush) ("Greg 'groggy' Lehey")
  carb calculator ("Peter A. Ensminger")
  canning wort (Alan McKay)
  Re: Carb calculator (Demonick)
  RE: oak barrels ("Brian Lundeen")
  RE: Over-Fremented ESB ("Sven Pfitt")
  Calories ("A. J. delange")
  Phoenix area home brew stores ("John Adsit")
  Mr. Yates, the dry and powerless (Ray)
  HERMS exchanger design - will this work? ("Steve Park")
  Switching the neutral ("A.J deLange")
  My Brother in Law ("n0vse")


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Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 01:35:55 -0400
From: Alexandre Enkerli <aenkerli at indiana.edu>
Subject: Yeast Culturing in Baby Jars

Been reading a bunch of things on yeast culturing [1-11] and pretty 
much decided on using baby food jars in a pressure cooker [2]. Found 
the agar-agar, secured a deal with parents of a very young baby nearby, 
will borrow a pressure cooker from someone else and will manage to find 
a flame source.
It's still a lot of information to digest and some of it's slightly 
contradictory.

So, here are a few (obvious) questions:
a) Is it really ok to close the lids of the baby food jars when we 
autoclave them?
b) The jars just rest on the metal plate in the cooker, right?
c) Do I really need 10-15 agar-agar strings for a quart of medium?
d) Is there any reason to prepare and autoclave the "slants" and 
starter wort separately?
e) How much time does it really take to prepare all this (slants and 
starter wort jars)?
f) Anyone got short mpegs of streaking and transferring? (Animations in 
[4] are nice but video can be more detailed)
g) Are hops and yeast nutrients good additions to the starter wort and 
slant medium?
h) Are these "slants" safe for shipping to friends? Or do we need to 
dry them [10]?
i) Can we culture directly from dry yeast?

Sorry for all these questions but it's hard to make sense of it all 
although it eventually seems simple.

AleX in Moncton, NB
[1568.9km, 68] Apparent Rennerian

References:
[1] Rog Leistad's /Yeast Culturing for the Homebrewer/ (e.g. 
http://brewersclub.safeshopper.com/20/67.htm?933 )
[2] 
http://www.bodensatz.com/staticpages/index.php?page=20030128212525422
[3] 
http://www.bodensatz.com/staticpages/index.php?page=20030115194537697
[4] http://www.alsand.com/beer/yeast/index_E.html
[5] http://www.foamrangers.com/foamimprov/fitt00011.html
[6] http://oz.craftbrewer.org/Library/Methods/Lacey/YeastHand.shtml
[7] http://www.hrbts.org/archive/techneek/cultyst1.html
[8] http://www.unm.edu/~draper/beer/slantuse.html
[9] http://members.at.infoseek.co.jp/joji82/MyYeast.html
[10] http://hbd.org/brewery/library/yeast-faq.html
[11] /Zymurgy/ 12(4), 1989, Special Issue on "Yeast & Beer"



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Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 17:13:23 +1100
From: Wes Smith <wsmith at rslcom.net.au>
Subject: Re: Brumalt/Melanoidin/Honey Malt

Yep, your algebraic equation is spot on. Melanoidin malt = Honey malt = 
Brumalt (or Brumalz in German). I have tried unsuccessfully to get a 
literal translation for the "bru" in Brumalt. It certainly does not mean 
brew as we know it. Can anybody enlighten us??

Wes.

>Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 17:24:45 -0800 (PST)
>From: "H. Dowda" <hdowda at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Brumalt/Melanoidin/Honey Malt
>
>Posters have been discussing how to make melanoidin
>malt.  During the discussion, Brumalt has been equated
>to melanoidin.  The honey malt produced by
>Gambrinus(?) is commonly described as Brumalt. So, is
>brumalt, melanoidin?  If a=b and b=c then a=c




Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 17:00:36 +1030
From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" <grog at lemis.com>
Subject: Brewing with rain water (was: Brewin In The Bush)

On Tuesday, 30 December 2003 at 12:35:39 +1100, Phil Yates wrote:
> But moving on to the subject, brewing in the bush ain't as easy as I was
> thinking. For a start, we depend on rain water.

Some of the best water you can have.  Maybe.

> When green slimy stuff started oozing out of the shower, I was
> puzzled. Shortly after I was confronted with the fact that we had
> hit the bottom of the water tanks. I hadn't thought to check, not
> that I could do much about it. Whilst Jill and Phoebe were screaming
> about no showers or drinking water, I was wondering where my next
> supply of brewing water would come from. I bought a truck load of
> water from town. Then I figured out how to divert water from the
> bore down to the water tanks behind the house. This first gets
> pumped up to a header tank on the hill which I then gravity feed
> down to the house. It comes out of the bore a little high in iron,
> but by the time it gets to the house, the iron content drops
> considerably. It tastes great, but I'm yet to brew with it.

I couldn't bear to think of brewing with bore water.  I suppose it
depends on the quality of the water, but round here it's running 2200
ppm.  My refractometer tells me it's 0.3% Brix, and the hydrometer
says 0.997.

On the other hand, rain water is God's gift to Pilsener.  No minerals
at all (except for those contained in the odd magpie droppings).  I
have difficulty keeping mash pH up high enough (tends to be round the
4.9 mark), and my attempts at dark beers have been less than
spectacular.  Bacteria count is something else, of course, and after
getting a gusher on my first brew, I've taken to boiling the water and
cooling it down again before use.

> Next problem was the power supply. On any windy day we get up to ten
> power failures. With no power we have no pump to supply any water at
> all. The longest black out we had lasted twenty four hours. I told
> the Electricity suppliers this just isn't on for a brewer, but they
> don't seem to care. So next on my shopping list will be an emergency
> generator.

But that's one of the basic necessities of life.  Round here the
blackouts come in two flavours: less than a minute, or two hours, the
time it takes to clean off a possum who has been stupid enough to try
and cross a high-voltage insulator.  That's too long for a brewer too,
so we installed a generator and cross-over switches long ago.

> I figure something like 10kva's should be enough to keep my three
> brewing fridges and one temp controlled chest freezer running okay.

Far too much.  Generators come in two versions: expensive diesel, and
cheap petrol.  The cheap petrol ones want a decent load, or they get
unhappy.  A fridge uses about 700 W maximum, a freezer a little more.
Ours is 5.8 kVA, and we've never come close to keeping it loaded.

If you really do have 24 hour interruptions (NE NSW?), you should
ensure you have enough petrol to keep you going.  When the power
fails, so do the petrol pumps.  Our generator uses about 1.5 litres
per hour.

> Jill asked about running the oven.

Not a problem.  Maximum of 2 kW.  The only thing we can't run is the
air conditioner.

> So brewing ain't easy out in the sticks, but I will conquer all! My
> saviour has been Wes who, brewing from the safety of town, delivers
> the occasional keg to me for sampling. Thank you Wes, without your
> supply I'm sure my skin would crack in the parched heat of an Aussie
> summer.

How can beer made with tap water match beer made with rain water?
Looking round here (Adelaide, where we have some of the world's most
famous water), I'm glad I don't have the worries about water
conditioning that others have.

On a more serious note, who else on this list brews with rain water?
Any comments about differences?

Greg
- --
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.


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Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 01:39:50 -0500
From: "Peter A. Ensminger" <ensmingr at twcny.rr.com>
Subject: carb calculator

A Beer with 1.045 OG/1.017 FG has ~20 g carbohydrates/12 oz (=80 cal/12 
oz) and is ~3.7% ABV (=71 cal/12 oz).

"Real Extract" is a measure of the sugars that are fermented and 
accounts for the density lowering effects of alcohol. Basically, it's 
your FG (in Plato) if you removed all the alcohol.

BTW, Mr. Goodbeer and you should use the proper URL for my site: 
<http://hbd.org/ensmingr/>. Then again ... I should recode this 5-year 
old web site (ie, eliminate frames) so this does not happen.

Cheerio!
Peter A. Ensminger
Syracuse, NY
<http://hbd.org/ensmingr/>






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Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 09:44:11 -0500
From: Alan McKay <amckay at neap.net>
Subject: canning wort

don van writes :

> First, regarding pressure cooking -- I have been simply steaming the 
> entire jar, lid and wort with great success for many years now.  Some 
> times I have not even gone that far.  I would simply draw off some 
> boiling wort into a clean canning jar, screw on the lid and allow to 
> cool.  

Don, your method is extremely unsafe according to every authority on
home canning out there, including the USDA.  It is referred to as the
"open kettle" method, and is something that our grandmothers did, and
one of the key reasons why someone should never learn home canning
from their grandmother.  You should only ever learn home canning from
an up-to-date book.  It may work for you once.  It may work 100
times.  It may work 1000 times.  Sooner or later you or someone you
know and love is going to get bitten, though.

Wort ABSOLUTELY MUST be pressure-canned.  Period.

If you adjust the pH below 4.6, you are able to can in a boiling water
bath.  But still, your method is unsafe.

Here is a link to the USDA home canning guide :
http://www.bodensatz.com/portal.php?what=link&item=20031213195131235

Here is a letter I wrote to Zymurgy a few years back :

Dear Zymurgy Editor,

In the little insert "Bulk Starter Production" at the bottom of pages 
72-73 (Spring, 1996) of Mr Jeff Shurts' article entitled "Easy Starter 
Steps", Mr Shurts encourages readers to do something potentially deadly: 
can a foodstuff without proper processing. 

As any good modern book on canning foods will tell you (See: "Putting 
Food By", ISBN: 0-452-26899-0, Plume 1991), canning food with this old-
fashioned "Open Kettle Method" is no longer considered safe. 
Furthermore, "every carefully prepared food with a rating higher than 4.6 
pH must be processed in a Pressure Canner" (PFB, p 43). This means cooking 
the entire mason jars in a pressure cooker for at least a half hour, 
preferably longer. 

The reason is that, although Botulism cannot survive at regular boiling 
water temperatures, Botulism spores are only destroyed at the higher
temperatures only possible in a pressure cooker. For higher-acid foods 
(below 4.6), processing the entire jar in boiling water is sufficient 
since the acid acts on the spores as well, however, for lower acid 
food products like beer wort, a pressure cooker is an absolute 
requirement. 

Making a bulk starter is indeed a very good idea, but only when done safely in 
a Pressure Canner. I hope you'll inform readers of this in your next issue. 



- -- 
http://www.bodensatz.com/
TCP/IP: telecommunication protocol for imbibing pilsners
        (Man-page of Unix-to-Unix beer protocol on Debian/GNU Linux)


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Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 07:32:43 -0800
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: Re: Carb calculator

From: Ricky Robbins HBD #4439

>As an aside, I'm still having trouble with exactly what "real extract"
>is. 

Note the date of the following:

>From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
>Date: Wed, 7 Jul 93 11:13:35 EDT
>
>There's "apparent attenuation" and "real attenuation". The difference
>comes about because alcohol has a specific gravity less than 1 (about
>0.8). Real attenuation is the percent of sugars converted to alcohol. So,
>if you had a 10% (by weight)  sugar solution (about 1.040), and got 100%
>real attenuation, the resulting specific gravity would be about 0.991
>(corresponding to about 5% alcohol by weight). The apparent attenuation of
>this brew would be 122% !

Here is the formula I use for percent alcohol and carbs.  The C code is
available at http://www.primetab.com

**   A  = alcohol content of finished beer by % weight.
**   RE = real extract of finished beer in degrees Plato.
**   OE = original extract - extract of wort in degress Plato.
**   AE = apparent extract - measured degrees Plato of finished beer.
**   FSG= Final specific gravity.
**
**   Convert all SG measurements to degress Plato thusly:
**   P = -676.67 + 1286.4*SG - 800.47*SG*SG + 190.74*SG*SG*SG
**
**   Then  RE = 0.1808*OE + 0.8192*AE
**   and   A  = (OE - RE) / (2.0665 - 0.010665*OE)
**
**   Calories = (24.495*A + 14.2*(RE - 0.1))*FSG
**        where: 24.495*A*FSG         = calories from alcohol
**               14.2*(RE - 0.1)*FSG  = calories from extract
**                                                           
**   These equations are courtesy of George J. Fix.

Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152  phone
(206) 782-6766  fax
Seattle, WA
demonick at zgi dot com
http://www.primetab.com



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Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 10:27:04 -0600
From: "Brian Lundeen" <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: oak barrels

> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 16:07:19 -0500
> From: "-S" <-s at adelphia.net>
> Subject: re: oak bbls
> 
> >I'd like to know how to sterilize the inside,
> 
> Can't be done.  I admit to having used iodophor and sulfite 
> solutions, but
> this is nothing like sterilization and given the porosity of 
> wood can't even
> be considered good sanitation.   The place above also sells 
> sulfur strips -
> a traditional wine barrel sanitizing step (of very dubious 
> value and flavor
> impact I think).  It's all whistling past the graveyard ... . 
>  Wood cannot
> be sanitized to common brewery standards.

No, it can't, but trying to kill off the microbes is not only a hopeless
task, it is not even a desirable one. In winemaking, a barrel makes a nice
home for your oenococcus oeni population to help your wines go through a
malolactic fermentation. That is why I strongly believe that barrels are
best used in their neutral de-oaked form as a vessel for fermenting lambic
styles, or at worst, as a real ale cask where you plan to quaff that 48
liters in short order. Neighbourhood real ale party sounds like a plan.

I disagree with your assessment of burning sulfur strips as being of dubious
value and flavour impact. This is by far the preferred method of storage by
winemakers, since filling with sulphite solution robs them of their precious
oak (again, if a neutral barrel is desired, this is not an issue). The gas
itself does not seem to have a flavour impact. The only caution I have heard
is to not allow any drippings from the burning stick to fall into the barrel
(a pan suspended from the bung accomplishes this). This elemental sulfur is
not considered a problem for wine storage (effect on beer not documented to
my knowledge), but it might cause an H2S problem in future in-barrel
fermentations. 

And it is of preservative value, in that it prevents the development of
mold, which is basically a barrel killer. Once you get mold in a barrel, you
might as well cut it apart and use it for decorative planters. Or turn it
over to a local Taiko group. Being friends with someone into Taiko drumming,
I can tell you most don't have a big budget for their drum construction, and
donated barrels would certainly be welcome.

Cheers
Brian, in Winnipeg




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Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 11:42:41 -0500
From: "Sven Pfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Over-Fremented ESB

Kyle Mychajlonka  queries about tho to proceed with a beer that has set for 
a month:

>I currently have an ESB in the plastic primary that should have been 
>bottled on Nov. 30 (the flu and the holiday stopped it from happening). 
>This is the first time
>anything like this has happened to me. How should I proceed with this beer? 
>Should
>I prime and bottle it? Do I need to add any yeast to it? What is the 
>collective opinion?

>Kyle


If it is less than three months old, you are safe just adding the priming 
sugar and bottling it (being sure to pull a little of the yeast from the 
bottom in doing so). It might take a little longer than usual to carbonate, 
but should have no problems.

If you are skittish, add a quarter pack of a nice neutral yeast like 
nottingham, or 1056, cultured SNPA (my favorite), etc, when you prime.

I never worry about how long it takes to get beer into bottles or cornys, 
unless it streaches out to four months or more.

rev Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery  http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN [422.7, 169.2] Rennerian

"There is no such thing as gravity, the earth sucks." Wings Whiplash - 1968



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Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 16:41:09 +0100
From: "A. J. delange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Calories

Here's what I posted on calorie content back in Jul 99 (#309):

ASBC Method Beer-33 gives the caloric content of beer as

Calories/100g = 6.9*ABW + 4(Real Extract - Ash)

Calories/mL = (calories/100g)*(specific gravity)/100

where Real Extract in in degrees Plato and Ash is the % ash content of
the beer by weight. ABW can be estimated from initial and final
gravities by

ABW = (0.39661 + 0.0017091*Po + 1.0788E-5*Po^2)*(Po - Pf)

where Po is the original extract (Plato) and Pf is the apparent extract
(also Plato). This formula represents a least squares fit to Balling's
table.

Real extract is reasonably easily estimated by measuring 100 mL of beer
in a volumetric flask, transferring quantitiatively (i.e. rinse the
flask with distilled water and add the rinsings) to a beaker and
evaporating to about 30 mL. Return to the volumetric flask. Rinse the
beaker and add the rinsings to the flask and then make up to 100 mL. Now
measure the gravity and convert to Plato.

Alternatively, the real extract can be estimated quite closely by

Real_extract = Po + 0.010665*ABW*Po - 2.0665*ABW

Ash will probably be a couple of tenths of a % at most and can, thus, be
ignored.

Carbohydrates are specified (ASBC Method Beer-6) as the real extract
less protein and ash. Protein is a bit dicey to measure but is usually
small relative to the real extract as is ash. Thus, for a rough
approximation, estimate the sugars as the real extract.

[Ref. DeClerk Vol II p 426 - 428]



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Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 12:42:22 -0700
From: "John Adsit" <j.adsit at comcast.net>
Subject: Phoenix area home brew stores

My son has recently moved to the Phoenix area (Tempe). Can anyone recommend
a good brewing supply store in that area?

Thanks.

John Adsit
Boulder, CO
j.adsit at comcast.net




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Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 16:16:19 -0500
From: Ray <rkruse at johngalt.biz>
Subject: Mr. Yates, the dry and powerless

The Former Bugger of Burradoo wrote:

 > Having upset most of the Burradoovians by my sudden departure and
 > reappearance as "Cattle Baron of Berrima", I was looking forward to a
 > new brewing life. Mind you, I'm not pleased to hear that Brian
 > Lundeen has been referring to me as "Bugger Of Burradoo". I would
 > have expected this sort of behaviour from Ray Kruse since I named him
 > "Goat King Of Kentucky". But you can't get much out of Ray these
 > days. He's been living on a concentrated diet of sausages and eggs
 > all year and talks about nothing but his dramatic weight loss. I'm
 > not game to ask him if he brews or drinks beer anymore.

Having been smoked out, I'll just say that I am raising goats in 
Kentucky now, but have not been elected King.  At least not yet.  I may 
soon be the President of the county goat association, but that isn't 
really why I'm writing.

I do still drink beer, but not as much as I did when I was brewing.  I 
think it's been three years since I've brewed a batch.  Had to drink the 
stock that I'd built up before moving because the moving company didn't 
want to consider moving 50 gallons of beer across state lines.  So I 
drank most of it during the last year.  Tough job, but someone had to do it.

Having gotten the house built, and then a barn, and then put up 3000 
bales of hay, got the goats bred, (...Hmm, I should say that I had that 
done by a buck goat, as I'm not Australian), so I've been busy but now 
building the brewery has perked to the top of the 'to do' list.

I've been working with Jay Spies on his HERMS system and will be putting 
mine together this winter.  Most of the materials are on hand and I 
expect to be getting a batch together before Spring.

Only other project brewing related has to do with a reflux column that I 
built and plan to put to use.  I appreciate the thread on barrels and 
will save the links.

 > For a start, we depend on rain water. When green slimy
 > stuff started oozing out of the shower, I was puzzled.

 > Next problem was the power supply. On any windy day we get up to ten
 > power failures.

I thought I was living in the sticks, but it appears that I'm just 
living in a dry county.  Phil seems to have given himself a big dose of 
'reality'.  I'm sure that we'll all be entertained by his brewing 
stories from the Great Beyond, too.

 > the next thing I know, Jeff's calling me from America on my mobile
 > phone. You can run, but you certainly can't hide from Jeff!!

Jeff, would you post me privately with the Buggers phone number?

Happy New Year to all!

Ray
- -- 
"As many of you know, the U.S. is putting together a constitution for
Iraq.  Why don't we just give them ours?  Think about it--it was written
by very smart people.  It's served us well for over two hundred years,
and besides, we're not using it anymore."
               Jay Leno




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Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 17:29:40 -0600
From: "Steve Park" <parkwebonly at austin.rr.com>
Subject: HERMS exchanger design - will this work?

First post - the timing of the recent RIMS/HERMS discussion has be
perfect, as I've been contemplating upgrading my three-tier system for
the past couple of months. Between the discussion and reading just about
every Web site on the topic I've started my new system design and have
an idea I'd like to get comments on.

I've decided on the HERMS route, with a separate heat exchanger. I like
the modularity that a separate exchanger provides as it will allow me to
switch use the HLT I have today without modification and upgrade it
later without having to build a new exchanger. I've seen a lot of
designs for heat exchangers and came up with an approach I haven't seen
tried.

Rubbermaid has a 2 gallon version of the 5 & 10 gal round coolers that
many of us use for mash/lauter tuns. The smaller coolers include a tap
at the bottom just like their big brothers.

My idea is to remove the tap and install a 1500W, 120V heating element.
For the heat exchanger I would install a coil of 3/8" copper tubing,
with the wort input and output entering and exiting through the screw-on
lid. Based on a rough calculation I should be able to get ~25 ft. of
tubing into the cooler with room to spare above the heating element.

Set up would be easy - fill up the cooler with water, screw on the lid,
hook up to the pumping loop. The lid contains a spout that would allow
overflow to exit, pressure to be released and any additional water to be
added to the exchanger during the mash. Just hook up to the PID
controller and let it rip.

As a secondary benefit, this exchanger could be used during the summer
as a pre-cooler for feeding into a counterflow wort chiller. During the
boil just dump the hot water, let the cooler cool off, add water and
ice, screw the lid back on and connect your water supply and CFC to the
loop.

Anyone tried this type of device before? Any comments on the approach?




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Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 00:01:39 +0000
From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Switching the neutral

Since it was brought up again I'll mention another advantage to 
switching the neutral: relays sometimes fail by having the contacts 
fuze. If this happens (and it did happen to me on a chiller) a DPDT 
relay with enough springiness in the armature to allow one contact to 
release even though the other is fuzed would save the day.



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Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 18:41:49 -0700
From: "n0vse" <n0vse at idcomm.com>
Subject: My Brother in Law

Hi All

This Christmas my brother-in-law brought a brew he said he made.  I
doubt this since he could not explain anything about the brewing
process.
That is typical for him as his motto is, "If you can't do it for me,
it ain't
gonna get done."

Anyway this was a fairly interesting beer.  Having just read the
Zymurgy article on red Irish ales the night before I was astounded
when I saw
this stuff.  It had just the right color, a copper red.  The aroma was
nice
with a touch of an old time candy shop with the toffee pullers.  No
hops
fragrance. Upon tasting it, it was wonderful.  I noticed the
characteristic diacetyl character of butter and candy and this was
nice.  For the
first couple of sips.  Then it got insipid.

Most everybody liked it but I could still taste it the next day.  I
complimented my BIL on a nice Irish ale.  It was obvious he had no
idea.  So I told him that buttery flavor came from yeast.  He had no
idea what
yeast he used.  When I asked him what the process was and the
ingredients he
replied, just the usual stuff.

One thing I did glean was he (or more likely somebody else) used
bleach to sanitize.  I think they did a rotten job as the stuff had
promise but
that diacetyl was too much!

I went to my local homebrew store today and asked them the same
question.  I received varying results and I'm curious about everybody
else's opinions.  Bad yeast?  Bread yeast?  Infection?


Happy New Year

John Gubbins
Littleton, Co....




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