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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  304 stainless ("remember, beer is food")
  bleach in beer; keg kettles (Carter Stein)
  cost to cut & weld keg for brew kettle... (Carter Stein)
  Xingu (Todd Koumrian)
  Getting wort out of the brew pot, & Ginger Beer (Patrick Stirling (Sun HQ Consulting Services))
  More Bud Keg Ideas  (Dave Brown)
  304 Stainless Steel (L_LEE1)
  some info on soda kegs (florianb)
  Oatmeal Stout, Brewpubs, etc.. ("Jay H, the metallic")
  flat beer and bottle caps (Chip Hitchcock)
  Incompetent mashing by a novice leads to confusion (but no worry) (Chris Shenton)
  Re: Blow-off tube (was: When to pitch starter) (Chris Shenton)


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Archives available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


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Date: Wed, 11 Jul 90 10:09 EST
From: "remember, beer is food" <CASEY at ALCVAX.PFC.MIT.EDU>
Subject: 304 stainless

With great trepidation, I offer this info which is grossly out of context
for this forum, with the hope of ending this (albeit interesting) discussion:
 type 304 stainless is a high-nickel content, or austenitic alloy.  it is
 great for instrument construction.  very tough, ductile, and resistive to
 corrosion.  also sensitive to heat treatment and cold working.  it is the
 most non-magnetic of the 300-series (high nickel) alloys.  useful for 
 applications where it will be worked into a shape (like a beer keg), but
 loses some of its corrosion resistance (due to carbon precipitation) when
 welded (can be offset by annealing after welding).   There should be no
 problems using a modified keg as a kettle, other than scorching on the
 bottom from uneven heat distribution.

- ---------------
While I'm on the line, whoever mentioned Cambridge Brewing Co lately was
correct.  It has been consistently good for the last six months at least.
They always offer a golden, amber, and stout, plus at least one special.
Lately their special has been a heavenly Weissbier.  It inspired me to
try my own.  I chickened out on using a special yeast for (clove) esters,
and stuck to Whitbread and high temp to get it right.  It would be superb
once it ages, but it will never get there.  Its been in the keg less than
two weeks and is nearly history already.

          happy brewing.     Jeff Casey     MIT-PFC   617-253-0885

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Date: Wed, 11 Jul 90 08:38:57 PDT
From: Carter Stein <carters at sirius.cax.tek.com>
Subject: bleach in beer; keg kettles

An update on the brew I made that I had dribbled a bit of chlorox...

I bottled about 10 days ago, and tasted for the first time last night.
There was perhaps a very, very minimal phenolic taste that I could detect,
however, my roommates could not discern it.

I did get, however a bit a astringency in the after-taste.  But, I think
this might be because I boiled my 1.5 oz of cascade hops  (6.5 alpha) 
for 90 minutes rather than 60 (comments?).

I procured a stainless steel beer keg that I converted to a brew kettle before
I started all grain brewing.  I took it to a metal shop in Portland and had
them cut and grind a hole in the top.  I had them leave a 1 inch ring (or so)
ring of the top, to serve to hold a lid.  I also had them weld a 5/8" fitting
(bushing?) about an inch from the bottom into which I put a 1/2" ball valve.

I connected a short, 2" X 3/8" piece of  copper tubing to that.  When it's
time to run the wort through the chiller, I connect a piece a plastic tubing
to the copper from the ball valve to the chiller and then open the valve
and let the hot wort flow through the counter-flow wort chiller.  

The only problems that I have run into with this configuration is I sometimes
get an air lock in the chiller.  So, I have to suck on the outlet of the 
chiller to get the syphon started.  The other problem is sanitizing the
chiller.  I do this by boiling water in the kettel while I'm mashing
in another container.  Then, I run the boiling water through the chiller
(without running the cold water counter-flow) for about 20 minutes.

Does anyone else have better ideas for sanitizing a counter-flow wort chiller?

Finally, thanks to Ken Weiss, florianb and others, for there analysis of my
chlorine problem!

Still not worrin'...

- --Carter

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Date: Wed, 11 Jul 90 08:46:53 PDT
From: Carter Stein <carters at sirius.cax.tek.com>
Subject: cost to cut & weld keg for brew kettle...

I mentioned in a previous note that I had a keg top cut, and a stainless
fitting welded, but I neglected to not the cost:

	The stainless steel fitting cost $15.00 list (I got it for about
	$5.00).
	Cutting and welding costs $40.00.

Hey!  I'm not worried, it's an investment!

- --Carter


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Date: Wed, 11 Jul 1990 09:22:17 PDT
From: todd at NISC.SRI.COM (Todd Koumrian)
Subject: Xingu

I read that artical in last years SF Chronicle Food section, and as I
remember, Xingu is the result of German (yes German) brewers living
in that Amazonian area who decided to make a beer combining German
brewing traditions with the local techniques.  This meant roasting the
malt until it was basically charred, and maybe some other things which
I have forgotten.  Needless to say, the beer is definately the work
of modern industrial methods of brewing.

The colorful bit about Indians chewing the grains and spitting them into
a pot applies to lots of native South American alcoholic beverages (I recall
my high-school Spanish teacher telling about one where corn was chewed,
spit into a pot, buried, and later dug up and the contents consumed) and
the original native beer that Xingu was partially derived from, but not
Xingu.  Sorry.

If anyone is still interested in more on Xingu, I can dig up what I have
around on it and give you more accurate details later.

Todd

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Date: Wed, 11 Jul 90 09:21:36 PDT
From: pms at Corp.Sun.COM (Patrick Stirling (Sun HQ Consulting Services))
Subject: Getting wort out of the brew pot, & Ginger Beer


Ken van Wyk asked about getting the cooled wort out of the
brewpot (an ex-Bud keg) and into the primary. Well, I ladle it out
with a saucepan. Works fine. Of course, I only brew up 2-3 gallons
at a time. but you could use a bigger saucepan! Alternatively, I've
seen a system whereby you insert steel mesh into the brew pot 2 or 3
inches above the bottom, and install a tap. Then after cooling just
turn on the tap (after placing the promary below it!) and presto,
auto filtering and straightforward sparging too. You would need to
cut off the top of the keg to do this, though.

Ken Weiss talked about Ginger beer. I've made this several times, with
great success. I have always peeled the ginger. I think you should try
it again! I assume that you like ginger or you wouldn't have tried it in
the first place. So don't be discouraged, go for it! I've found that I
prefer it in a dark brew. It adds a "clean" flavour - I don't know
how else to put it. I got the fist recipe from Papazians Joy of HB,
(Vagabond Ginger Ale), which call for 2 - 4 oz fresh ginger. With 4oz
you'll get a pretty strong flavour; I typically put in 2.5 to 3 oz.

And now for the round up. I recently brewed a raspberry ale. A standard
"Texas Brown" (ie amber malt extract with crystal and chocolate malt
adjuncts), with 2 packs (10oz) of thawed frozen raspberries added at the
peak of fermentation. Success! It's great! The only down side is the
syrup that the raspberries were packed in. It seems to be unfermentable,
as there's a definite "syrupy" sweet undertaste. It's not bad but I'd
rather it weren't there! Next time I'll try fresh raspberries. Any ideas
on how to sanitize them? Perhaps fresh frozen (i.e. in a bag, like forzen
peas) would be better. My last beer was an espresso porter - 2 cups of
fresh brewed espresso. But a week after bottling, oh no! The dreaded 
ring around the collar. Every bottle. I can tell that it would have
been good, except for that yucky infected taste. My first bad batch!

patrick

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Date: Wed, 11 Jul 90 09:54:09 PDT
From: brown at ocelot.llnl.gov (Dave Brown)
Subject: More Bud Keg Ideas 


                               --<>--
Ken van Wyk writes:

      Case settled, right?  *One* more question ;-} - has anyone using
      these things come up with a good technique for pouring the
      (cooled) through a filter system and into the primary?  It would
      appear that the handle "ring" (for lack of a better term) at the
      top would at least partially obstruct easy pouring of the wort,
      and siphoning would be next to impossible with the whole leaf
      hops in my wort.  Suggestions anyone?


Since our friends at Buffalo Bill's haven't let us down yet, I'll give
you his suggestions.  The first is to weld a spigot to the bottom side
of the keg to drain it.  He used black steel(?) gas pipe, because he
claims that this can be welded to stainless steel.  You then attach
some sort of faucet to that.  Now my questions is do you want this
kind of steel in contact with your wort?  How about brazing copper to
the keg, will that work?   What are people's opinions on copper?  I
notice all the good breweries use *large* copper boiling kettles, so
it can't be bad, right?  

I don't like the idea of using gas pipe, so if some one has an idea
about how to obtain economical stainless or copper fittings and
faucet that would be a good addition to our ideas.

The other thing that I am not crazy about is welding or brazing. Can
you just use some sort of pressure fitting.  Like a threaded pipe and
a nut with lockscrew.  I would think this would work as long as you
had a good gasket.  The question is what kind of gasket I suppose,
maybe cork?

To anticipate your next question, how do you fire the thing?  If you
just stick this keg on your stove, you'll find it welded to the stove
top after your first brewing session.  The lip on the bottom is too
large to rest on the element, so it will no doubt, rest on the stove
top, transferring large amounts of heat to it.  How they did it at
Buffalo Bills is to create a stand to hold the pot (15.5 gallon) and
Used an old gas water heater element to fire the pot.  They used the
gas main from the house, but an important point is that they used a
gas regulator from a fire-place and some other fittings to ensure a
professional and safe apparatus.  I would check with someone
knowledgable about these things to ensure that you get this right.
You might burn down the neighborhood if your not careful.  I believe
someone has suggested using the apparatus from a gas grill, this might
be safer.

Looking forward to some good suggestions.

David

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Date:     Wed, 11 Jul 90 13:09 EST
From: <L_LEE1%UNHH.BITNET at MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Subject:  304 Stainless Steel



The composition of 304 stainless is roughly:

0.08% Carbon
2.00% Mangenese
1.00% Silicon
18.0-20.0% Chromium
8.0-10.5% Nickel
0.045% Phosphorus
0.03% Sulphur

with the balance being Iron.  This is taken from:

METALS HANDBOOK, 9th edition, Vol. 3: properties and selection
Stainless steels, Tool materials, and special purpose metals.
American Society for Metals, Metals Park, OH


Hope this helps in you undertakings.

Woody Lee
Ocean Process Analysis Lab
Universityof New Hampshire



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Date: 11 Jul 90 12:40:54 PDT (Wed)
From: florianb at tekred.cna.tek.com
Subject: some info on soda kegs

Recently, I have tried to increase my inventory of soda (Cornelius) kegs.
In a past posting, I indicated that the local Pepsi bottling company was
selling me used kegs for (cheap).  These were old kegs, mostly of the
Firestone type (racetrack lids), or possibly Cornelius kegs which had
had wine in them.  The bottler didn't want to use ones which had contained
wine.  I had been purchasing parts from Foxx or Rapids and rebuilding the
kegs so they were sanitary and functional.  In this process, I have 
learned several things which may be of value to others going down the same
path.

1	One should avoid the old John Wood kegs.  Although these have the
racetrack lid, it isn't the same as the Firestone type, and it's not possible
to find replacement lids.

2	Replacement parts for the Firestone kegs can be obtained from Foxx,
but there are several different varieties of valves, both gas and liquid.  Be
careful about these parts when ordering, since it's easy to get mixed up.

3	Bother to replace the valve inner parts, gaskets, and the lid o-ring.
This helps a great deal in getting the kegs to seal properly.

4	Art's brewing supplies in Salt Lake sells used kegs for a fair price.
	I haven't purchased any, but this looks like a good source.

Finally, after hassling with the John Wood kegs, I got the production
manager of the local Pepsi bottler to allow me to buy used, good, Cornelius
kegs at approximately 1/3 of the price in the catalogs for new units.  
Perhaps this is worth a try in your area.

Florian 
[Disclaimers:  My employer is in no way connected with Pepsi, Foxx, or Art's.
		Prices are not formal quotes or guarantees.]

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Date: 10 Jul 90 23:33:42 EDT
From: "Jay H, the metallic" <75140.350 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Oatmeal Stout, Brewpubs, etc..


The NYC club is called the NYC Homebrewers Guild, very nice fellows (at least the ones I
least the ones I've met at competitions) See the back of a Zymurgy for
phone numbers or addresses or call the AHA in Boulder. They can also 
tell you about other NYC supply shops I'm sure there is more than one.

On oatmeal stout, the typical oats americans are familiar with have been
soaked and rolled. I have made many differnet variations on a basic oatmeal
stout recipe. When I started using steel cut oats, (not soaked or rolled)
I found I got more oat flavor and aroma out of them. I would typically 
boil them down along with the dark grains.

To russ G.... I would dispute that cambridge is better than commonwealth.
While I enjoy both breweries I prefer some of the brews at commonwealth.
Certainly they do have very different styles. Cambridge is much improved
over the past year or so. Two of my friends work as brewhousemen there
but that doesn't change my slight preference for commonwealth.\

 - Jay H.

p.S. If you'd like one of my oatmeal stout recipes e-mail to me direct.
If response is large I'll post it otherwise I'll just send it along



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Date: Wed, 11 Jul 90 14:00:45 EDT
From: cjh at peoria.eng.ileaf.com (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: flat beer and bottle caps

>                                                       Upon inspecting
> the bottlecaps that I was using, it was clear that these cork lined
> caps tend to dry out and crack, allowing the carbonation to escape
> and infection to enter.

I didn't realize cork-lined caps were even made anymore! I certainly wouldn't
use them for homebrew, since caps should be sterilized before bottling;
bleach probably wouldn't rinse out of cork, and I'd expect boiling to ruin
the liner. Overrun soda caps with plastic liners cost around a cent apiece at
homebrew supply stores, so the risk of cork-lined caps isn't worth the
savings if you get them for free.

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Date: Tue, 10 Jul 90 10:34:56 EDT
From: Chris Shenton <chris at asylum.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Incompetent mashing by a novice leads to confusion (but no worry)

I just mashed my second all-grain, and my naivete has prompted some
problems, the main one being sparging.

I read with fear all the warnings about ``stuck runoff'' and ``set mash''.
I have the opposite: the flow is rather quick, and the big problem is that
it never runs clear, even after recycling the first 2 gallons or so.

My setup uses the food-bucket-with-holier-than-thou-false-bottom, a la
Miller. I used his second method which has larger but fewer holes, and
employ a grain-bag.

What am I doing wrong? Holes too big? I'm planning on making a new
mash/lauter tun similar (perhaps even identical) to Pete Sopor's:

    I'm making a new lauter tun based on the "slotted pipe"
    scheme.  I've got 3/8" OD copper pipe arranged in a coil in
    the bottom of a 5 gallon cylindrical Gott cooler. The coil
    covers the bottom surface (which is about 10" diameter) with
    1/8 to 1/4" gaps between turns.

Any suggestions? Thanks in advance.

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Date: Tue, 10 Jul 90 10:21:47 EDT
From: Chris Shenton <chris at asylum.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Blow-off tube (was: When to pitch starter)

cckweiss at castor.ucdavis.edu writes:
> I had a thought on a blow-off system I'd like to bounce off the group. I've
> noticed in my tours of microbreweries that their blow-off system is simply
> a tube that comes out the top of the fermentor, and bends 90 degrees, extends
> out past the side of the vessel, and turns 90 degrees down. The tube simply
> dangles there about three feet off the floor, and a bucket is placed below to
> catch the blow-off. What I'm thinking about is the exact same system, but
> scaled down to 5 gallon carboy size, and using pyrex lab tubing instead of
> stainless. That way I could just immerse the tube in bleach solution to
> clean it, and boil it if things got really nasty. Reactions?

Pyrex seems like over-kill, and a bit too fragile.

I got a 4 foot length of -- uh -- 1 1/2 inch or so diameter plastic tubing
from the Brewhaus. Its outer diameter fits snugly in the neck of my 7
gallon primary. I put the end of the tube in a bowl with an inch or two of
water to act as an airlock (more water creates excessive back-pressure).
Works fine. I bleach the tube to clean it, just like everything else.

I hooked up with this after having some of my heavier batches blow the lid
off my first plastic primary. Perhaps it's because I'm now using liquid
culture, or because the 7 gallon carboy has plenty of headspace -- I'm not
sure -- but I haven't gotten sufficient blowoff to come out of the tube. If
I used a 5 1/2 gallon carboy, I'm sure I would.

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #458, 07/12/90
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