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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Impressing non-homebrewers with homebrew (Thomas C. Palmer)
  Sparging methods (Mike Charlton)
  Kegs and deposits (gateh)
  Ginger Peeling (Clay Phipps)
  Lautertun Flow Rate (Dave Sheehy)
  Homebrew Digest #458 (July 12, 1990) (ferguson ct 71078)
  Homebrew Digest #458 (July 12, 1990) (ferguson ct 71078)
  Rinsing grains  (Gerald Andrew Winters)
  Doin' A NEW Thing... (Mitch Evans)
  #458, reply to sparging problems (florianb)
  Anybody using Clearly Canadian 11-oz bottles? ("suddenly, there came a tapping...")
  Oatmeal stout, an evolution (Jay H)


Send submissions to homebrew%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com
Archives available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


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Date: Thu, 12 Jul 90 08:32:09 EDT
From: Thomas C. Palmer <palmer at kimchee.ncsc.org>
Subject: Impressing non-homebrewers with homebrew

To those trying to impress non-homebrewers with homebrew, I suggest you
try Papazian's Rocky Racoon's Crystal Honey Lager.  All my friends who've
tried it *really* liked it.  The fairly strong hops nicely balance the
residual sweetness of the honey.  The high alcohol content can be
disconcerting though.

On another note, I'm looking for (extract) receipes for Christmas Holiday
brews.  Time to lay some down.  Cheers -

 -Tom

Thomas C. Palmer		North Carolina Supercomputing Center
Cray Research, Inc.		Phone: (919) 248-1117
Arpanet: palmer at ncsc.org

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Date: 12 Jul 90  8:46 -0500
From: Mike Charlton <umcharl3 at ccu.umanitoba.ca>
Subject: Sparging methods

  My brewing partner and I use a double bucket system as described in
Miller, and also had trouble with the sparge going too quickly.  The
key is to recycle until it runs fairly clearly.  It generally takes
between 4 to 6 gallons of recycling before ours goes clear (depending
on the type of beer that we are making).  Despite the fact that by the
end of the sparge the wort has cooled extensively, we always get extraction
rates that are just about bang on what is expected.
                   Mike

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Date: Thu, 12 Jul 90 12:08:46 EDT
From: gateh%CONNCOLL.BITNET at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Kegs and deposits

Apologies for being some what tardy on this topic, however the recent
discussion of readily obtaining half and quarter barrels for the cost of the
deposit ($10 has been mentioned by many) prompts me to add a note.

When I worked for a beer wholesaler/distributor in MN (in conjunction with a
local liquor store), I sold barrels and collected $50 deposits on keg and
tap ($35 keg, $15 tap).  While the liquor store handled the deposits, it was
the distributor who ate the cost of the keg when one didn't return, and the
deposit was little more than a token towards the true replacement cost,
which was well over $100 (don't know the exact cost).  I can tell you that
the distributor was *pissed* when a keg didn't return, especially since the
profit margin on kegs is so low.

All this leads me to say that if you have found a liquor store who is
willing to sell you kegs for $10, _something_ is amiss, and I wouldn't be
surprised if their distributor leans on them _very_ hard in the near future
about keeping track of their barrels.

Gregg TeHennepe       | Academic Computing Services         | Yes, but this
gateh at conncoll.bitnet | Connecticut College, New London, CT | one goes to 11...


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Date: Wed, 11 Jul 90 19:11:57 pdt
From: hplabs!garth!phipps (Clay Phipps)
Subject: Ginger Peeling

I haven't had the difficulty reported by others with fermentation of 
ginger brews.  Using a steam-style recipe in San Jose in the summer,
lack of fermentation is not a problem, and I have been told that
they taste "real[ly] clean" (as in no infections or off-flavors)
by a former brew-pub brewmaster who doesn't even like ginger brews --
so I conclude that I might have been doing something systematically right.

I always peel my ginger, then smash it, before putting it into the boil.
Peeling ginger is indeed a pain -- if you approach it like peeling
an orange.  The trick, as I was taught in a local chinese cooking class,
is to use a small knife held parallel to the surface, and *scrape* 
the skin off.  That works better than all methods that I have tried,
and in particular, it works better than using a potato peeler.

[The foregoing may or may not represent the position, if any, of my employer, ]
[ who is identified solely to allow the reader to account for personal biases.]
[Besides,     this message was written and mailed after normal business hours.]
                                              
Clay Phipps 
Intergraph APD: 2400#4 Geng Road, Palo Alto, CA 94303; 415/852-2327
UseNet (Intergraph internal): ingr!apd!phipps
UseNet (external): {apple,pyramid,sri-unix}!garth!phipps        EcoNet: cphipps


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Date: Thu, 12 Jul 90 10:01:14 PDT
From: Dave Sheehy <dbs at hprnd>
Subject: Lautertun Flow Rate
Full-Name: Dave Sheehy


Chris Shenton writes:

>I just mashed my second all-grain, and my naivete has prompted some
>problems, the main one being sparging.
>
>I read with fear all the warnings about ``stuck runoff'' and ``set mash''.
>I have the opposite: the flow is rather quick, and the big problem is that
>it never runs clear, even after recycling the first 2 gallons or so.
>
>My setup uses the food-bucket-with-holier-than-thou-false-bottom, a la
>Miller. I used his second method which has larger but fewer holes, and
>employ a grain-bag.
>
>What am I doing wrong? Holes too big? I'm planning on making a new
>mash/lauter tun similar (perhaps even identical) to Pete Sopor's:

You need to constrict the flow of the runoff with a valve or clamp or 
something. I have a double bucket lautertun which has a spigot installed on
the outer bucket. I use it to adjust the flow to a trickle.

>    I'm making a new lauter tun based on the "slotted pipe"
>    scheme.  I've got 3/8" OD copper pipe arranged in a coil in
>    the bottom of a 5 gallon cylindrical Gott cooler. The coil
>    covers the bottom surface (which is about 10" diameter) with
>    1/8 to 1/4" gaps between turns.

Lately, I've been using a combined mashtun/lautertun constructed from a 48 qt
Coleman cooler and slotted copper pipe. I use a clamp on the drain hose to
constrict the flow.
>
>Any suggestions? Thanks in advance.

Dave Sheehy
dbs%hprnd.hp.com


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Date: Thu, 12 Jul 90 13:01:59 EDT
From: ferguson at x102c.ess.harris.com (ferguson ct 71078)
Subject: Homebrew Digest #458 (July 12, 1990)


brown at ocelot.llnl.gov (Dave Brown) writes:

> What are people's opinions on copper?  I
> notice all the good breweries use *large* copper boiling kettles, so
> it can't be bad, right?  

Does anyone know if this is really true?  I thought they used bronze.

Chuck Ferguson             Harris Government Information Systems Division
(407) 984-6010             MS: W1/7742  PO Box 98000  Melbourne, FL 32902
Internet (new):            ferguson at x102c.ess.harris.com
Internet (old):            ferguson%cobra at trantor.harris-atd.com
Usenet:                    uunet!x102a!x102c!ferguson

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Date: Thu, 12 Jul 90 13:09:25 EDT
From: ferguson at x102c.ess.harris.com (ferguson ct 71078)
Subject: Homebrew Digest #458 (July 12, 1990)


For my various heinous sins, myself and another engineer have been
sentenced to a month in purgatory in Champaign-Urbana, IL (:->).  To
make our sentences easier to bear I would appreciate it if some
charitable soul could pass along the names of any brewpubs or good
bars in the area.  Since it's a college town there ought to be
something worthwhile.

Chuck Ferguson             Harris Government Information Systems Division
(407) 984-6010             MS: W1/7742  PO Box 98000  Melbourne, FL 32902
Internet (new):            ferguson at x102c.ess.harris.com
Internet (old):            ferguson%cobra at trantor.harris-atd.com
Usenet:                    uunet!x102a!x102c!ferguson

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Date: Thu, 12 Jul 90 13:25:19 EDT
From: gerald at caen.engin.umich.edu (Gerald Andrew Winters)
Subject: Rinsing grains 


> I read with fear all the warnings about ``stuck runoff'' and ``set mash''.
>I have the opposite: the flow is rather quick, and the big problem is that
> it never runs clear, even after recycling the first 2 gallons or so.

>From: Chris Shenton <chris at asylum.gsfc.nasa.gov>

  After reading your letter I felt it was a letter I could have written several
batches ago.  Those were my exact problems: no clearing and too fast a flow.  The 
solution for me was prompted by the fact that my degrees of extract was also rather
low, about 28 - 29, compared to Miller's 33 figure.  I tried crushing the grains a 
little finer, hoping my problem was too course a crush.  A course crush I thought might
not form a good filter along with allowing the sparge water to seep through too fast.
This solved my problem immediatly.  The initial run-off would clear after a couple of 
gallons and my DOE rose to about 32.  I hope this helps.

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Date: Thu, 12 Jul 90 10:33:26 PDT
From: mevans at nprdc.navy.mil (Mitch Evans)
Subject: Doin' A NEW Thing...



Howdy!

	I've been brewing for a couple of years, but have ALWAYS done so with
corn sugar/kit/hops.  Last night, I brewed my next batch a little differently
on the advise of one of the folks at our local homebrew shop (Beer and Wine
Crafts, El Cajon, CA).  I basically made an all-malt beer (no corn sugar),
using 2 cans of the pre-made Telford's Nut Brown Ale, 8oz of Crystal Malt,
and some HallerTauer hops to finish.  
	The reason I haven't gone to all grain -- I've got 18 units and 2
jobs (but I don't worry MUCH ;).  SO, setting up the mash, sparging for an
hour, etc...is more time than I have had off in the last couple of months.
The lady at the store suggested that I put the crystal malt (after crushing
in my coffee grinder for a brief time) in one of my wife's nylon stockings.
I placed the malt in right before the boil, and it kept well (and FLOATED, I
might add) throughout the 55 minute boil.  NOW, this seems like a GREAT
timesaver to me!  Then I began to think:  If it's so easy this way, why do
folks mash & sparge?  
	SO, I would like to know the advantages that taking the time to mash
and sparge has over this "quick and dirty" method.  Well, the nylons WERE
clean...

					Mitch

P.S.  Checked this morning (9 hours after pitching the yeast), and the batch
      is VERY active.  I'm gonna set the thermostat down to 65 degrees ;)



===============================================================================
|  mevans at coral.nprdc.navy.mil  	or 	doc at crash.cts.com             |
|  Homebrewers and writers:  The Dream Clinic BBS (619) 670-9522  300-2400bd  |
|  Nothing can compare to a good homebrew...except maybe 2 good homebrews...  |
===============================================================================

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Date: Thu, 12 Jul 90 11:20:20 PDT
From: dreger at seismo.gps.caltech.edu

Hello,

I have a desire to try my first christmas or spiced ale
next fall (to allow good aging).  If anyone has a good
recipe that they'd like to pass along I'd be delighted 
to try it.

Also, I am interested in purchasing some used 3 gallon cornileus kegs.
I have only been able to find the 5 gallon size locally.  I have also
noticed that a number of people are using 6.5 to 7 gallon carboys
as primary fermenters.  Is there a distributer of these as well.

So long,
Doug

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Date: 12 Jul 90 12:37:46 PDT (Thu)
From: florianb at tekred.cna.tek.com
Subject: #458, reply to sparging problems

Chris Shenton related some problems with sparging:

>I read with fear all the warnings about ``stuck runoff'' and ``set mash''.
>I have the opposite: the flow is rather quick, and the big problem is that
>it never runs clear, even after recycling the first 2 gallons or so.
>My setup uses the food-bucket-with-holier-than-thou-false-bottom, a la
>Miller. I used his second method which has larger but fewer holes, and
>employ a grain-bag.

As with many other techniques in home brewing, the sparging process seems to
work differently for everyone.  I tried a grain bag once, and it turned out
to be a  at #$&*! mess, with all the sparge water detouring around the grain.
I have used, in the past, the Zapap lauter tun with great success, except for
the large pressure exerted by the grain when full-grain recipes are used.
Even this can be relieved with the "T" fitting method of pressure regulation.

Nowadays, I use the picnic cooler method, which you quoted, and Pete Soper
described.  Everyone I've talked to who has gone to this method is very 
pleased with it.  I use a rectangular cooler, 1/2" copper pipe, and the
slots are cut every 1/2 to 1 ", about 1/3 the way through.  I was lucky to
find fittings of various sorts which allowed me to secure it through the 
existing plug-valve with a good seal (no modification).  The amount of wort
which needs to be recirculated depends on the base ingredients.  For example,
if you were to use all Munich malt, it could take two or three gallons of
recirculation before it runs clear.  With pure Klages 2-row, it could amount
to only 1/2 gallon of recirculation.  In any case, I highly recommend the
setup.

Incidentally, when one uses the picnic cooler method, it often happens that
the grain/wort combination, upon settling, will develop a fine layer of
grayish-white matter at the boundary between the wort and the grains.  This
layer can make an effective barrier to the wort drainage.  Several authors,
including a blurb in "The Master Brewer" recommend puncturing this layer
to prevent stuck runoff.  In big breweries, there are paddles set up 
to do this remotely.  In the home, a Bar-B-Q fork works well.

Florian


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Date: Thu, 12 Jul 90 16:46:00 PDT
From: "suddenly, there came a tapping..." <olson at skylrk.enet.dec.com>
Subject: Anybody using Clearly Canadian 11-oz bottles?

    My brewpartner buys these different seltzer-water combos.  She recently
    brought home a case of Clearly Canadian 11-oz bottles.  They're light
    blue, sort of pear-shaped.  Screw-top, but with a good bench capper one
    can overcome that handicap.  Question is, will they stand up to beer
    fermentation?  The bottle walls look thicker than Anchor Steam bottles
    (which have been used many times before with no trouble).  Anybody ever
    try beer in these bottles?  I'm planning to put up 2 or 3 bottles as
    an experiment when I bottle this weekend, unless someone knows better.
    They look so cool, I'd love to put a planned mead experiment in them!
    
    DougO

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Date: 13 Jul 90 00:08:25 EDT
From: Jay H <75140.350 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Oatmeal stout, an evolution

To Ken Van Wyck regarding not being able to siphon due to hops,
 Try using hop boiling bags for you rleaf hops, they allow very good
 alpha acid extraction yet eliminate leaf residue, though I suggest 
extra care when siphoning hot wort.

Regarding Oatmeal Stout requests there were quite a few so I'm posting
the recipe(s). Please note I am an extract brewer, using grains in osme
beers with a partial stovetop mash approach. When I brew dark beers I
typically crush the grains well with a rolling pin or something
similar then boil them dow for 30 minutes before straining them.
I typically like to get some atringency into stouts and porters in 
this fashion. WHat follows are 4 variations of oatmeal stout each of
which would easily rank in with my best beers.

Also note I have always found steel cut oats (boiled down as per 
other grains) in health food stores so I'd suggest looking there.

Original Oatmeal Stout

6.6 lb John Bull Dark (can sub in M&F)
1.5lb Plain Dark extract
2 0z Bullion in boil
1/2 lb Steel cut oats
7 g Muntona ale yeast
Irish Moss in boil
Water Crystals

O.G. 1.042      F.G. 1.021

Subjective Notes: This one probably had the most noticeable oat flavor
of all the variations on this recipe due to the balance between the
amount of malt and oats. It had a nice deep dark head, opaque color
and smooth creamy flavor. I'd probably use an Irish liquid Ale yeast or
the Whitbread if I did this one again.

Second Try:

6.6 John Bull Plain Light
1.5 Plain Dark powder extract
.75 lb Black Patent
.25 Roasted Barley
.5 Chocolate
.5 lb Steel Cut oats
7g Muntona Ale yeast
Irish Moss, Water Crystals
1/2 oz Fuggle, 1 oz Hallertauer  in boil
1 1/2 oz Cascade in 5 min finish

OG 1.050    FG 1.022

Notes: Addition of grains made the oatmeal flavor less noticeable. Color 
and hop balance were good again Irish Ale could yield some nice results
and I think the steel cut oats need to be bumped to 1lb to bring them
back to the fore.


Not so Oatmeal

3.3 lb M&F Plain Light
4 lb Alexanders Pale Unhopped
.5 lb Black Patent
.25 lb Roasted Barley
.5 Crystal or Cara-pils
.5 lb Steel Cut Oats

1 oz Hallertauer
.75 oz fuggles both leaf both in the boil

1 oz Cascade in finish 5 min)
1/2 oz cascade dry hop after 4 days in primary

14 g Muntona Ale yeast
Irish Moss and water crystals as per package

OG  Forgot to take it         FG 1.018

Notes: this one turned out real fruity, I think this was due to the use of
Alexanders which I like a lot it has a distinct character that I don't notice in
John Bull or M&F malt extracts. Dry hopping also helped, again the amount of steel cut oats relative
to other flavor grains was too low. Also I found that to get opaqueness
]it was necessary to use at least 1-2 lbs of dark malt extract (dry or
syrup) something I didn't do here hence a brown ale color and body.



Most recent:
6.6 M&F Light Unhopped extract
3.3 M&F Dark Unhopped
.5 lb cara-pils
.5 lb black patent
.5 lb roasted barley
.75 lb steel cut oats
8 oz malto-dextrin
irish moss and water crystals

2 oz Sticklbrackt (a down under super-hop) added to boil 
    in 1/2 oz batches at 20 min intervals
1 oz bullion also in boil at 1/2 oz intervals in between the Sticklbrackt
1 oz cascade in 5 min finish
1 oz cascade in fermenter dry hop
14 g Whitbread Ale

OG ???    FG 1.030

Notes: Darker and more stringent than other recipes. also more boldly hopped
but still well balanced due to the higher FG on this one. A little more
like Xingu or Mackesons due to the extra residual sweetness in this one
again the increase in steel cut oats was not enough to balance the 
grains and sweetness but this is a great stout.

Overall I'd have to say that number one had the most oat character
I think dropping the chocolate malt and doubling the oats in number 2
 might bring it more in line. The third was in between a brown ale
and say a sam smiths oatmeal stout (which isn't very opaque), and the 
last was a real good stout but the oats didn't stand out that much.

I hope this gives you all a good place to start and a bit of a feel 
for how my variations have affected the flavor. I have always 
counted these among some of my best and easiest to make recipes.
Apologies if this ran rather long but I felt those interested would
gain a lot more from the evolution of the recipe than for me to 
just post the most recent of what I believe is a still evolving
recipe. Good Luck keep me posted!

 - Jay H


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #459, 07/13/90
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