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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  RE: pumping sparge water - some tests (jeff)
  Diacetyl ("A.J deLange")
  FW: Diacetyl in CPBF beer ("Peed, John")
  RE: diacetyl as a result of CP filling ("Doug Hurst")
  Re: Pump issues ("Michael O'Donnell")
  While in Boston . . . . (Chip Stewart)
  RE: Pumping sparge water // RE: March Pump 809 issues ("Ronald La Borde")
  Re: Beer Store in Cambridge Mass (Michael Hetzel)
  Re. Pumping Sparge Water ("MARTIN AMMON")


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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 04:26:43 -0800 (PST)
From: jeff at henze.us
Subject: RE: pumping sparge water - some tests

Dave:

> Second, I reproduced the initial problem of pumping 70-80C water.
> Initial prime poor - bubbles in line immedately.  Once prime
> improved, full flow rate achieved.  Within 1-2' bubbles appeared.

It couldn't be that the hose around the barbs is expanding from the heat
and allowing air in, could it? It doesn't sound like the case, but I
thought I'd throw that out there.

> Question:  the other people that are experiencing my problem...
> are you using a slotted manifold or a false-bottom?  It may be
> that the false bottom people may not have any trouble.

I'm using a false bottom that has really good flow (with or without
grain). However, as I was saying in my earlier email, I have the same
problem with hot or cold water. After spending the time to prime the
system, there is no longer air in the lines, but because my pump is low
RPM/HP/GPM I'm not happy with it's flow rate, and I'm returning it.

I think what someone was saying earlier makes a lot of sense - if you have
lower than normal pressure on the line between the tun and the pump, it
will drop the boiling point of the water, which may be your problem. I
would measure the flow rate as it freely flows from the point your hose
attaches to the pump input (remove the hose, open your valves, see how
long it takes to fill up a gallon jug). Then hook everything up and make
sure you never exceed that flow rate when measured after the pump (and
after the valve you restrict the flow with after the pump). That way, you
are never pulling water out of the mash tun, and never reducing the
pressure enough to affect the boiling temperature.

I used a slotted manifold a while back and really liked it, but now I'm
using a (Phils?) false bottom that covers the entire bottom of my 5gal
round cooler. It works very good too.

- --Jeff


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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:31:10 +0000
From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Diacetyl

Assuming that the reaction given is responsible for the formation then 
the way to reverse it is to upset the equilibrium so that the reaction 
goes to the left. You can pull out acetoin or NAD+ or add NADH or H+. 
The only one of these which is worthy of serious consideration, clearly, 
is the addition of H+ and even that is probably not a fix unless sour, 
diacetyl free beer is preferrable to otherwize normal beer tasting of 
diacetyl. I suppose you could try other reducing agents like ascorbic 
acid. Or put the beer back into a keg and pressurize it to a couple of 
atmospheres in the hope that this would lower the pH enough to reverse 
the reaction then bleed the pressure off and drink it quickly.

As to the cause - I'd consider infection though I would expect other 
signs of that to be visible in addition to the diacetyl if it were 
responsible.

A.J.


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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:01:12 -0800
From: "Peed, John" <jpeed at elotouch.com>
Subject: FW: Diacetyl in CPBF beer


Chad is surprised to find diacetyl flavors in counter-pressure bottled beer.
I've been working on CPBF technique for some time now and I can tell you
that it's very common.  I can't speak to the technical aspects of it, but
Fix discusses it in An Analysis of Brewing Techniques.   General
deterioration of hop aroma and flavor is probably the most common problem
I've experienced in CPBF beers, with oxidation being the single most
identifiable problem flavor.  However, diacetyl flavor is a close second.
Some examples exhibit one, some the other, some both.  My beer does not have
detectable levels of diacetyl in the keg, but it often does develop diacetyl
as a result of bottling.  Surprisingly, I don't think I've ever had a judge
suggest that diacetyl or oxidation might be the result of bottling issues -
they mention everything from stale hops to hot side aeration to fermentation
temperatures and yeast, but not bottling.  This is particularly surprising
since my beer is obviously filtered.  If you have clear beer that tastes of
oxidation or diacetyl, you should suspect bottling problems, in my opinion.
Another problem with CPBF beer is that it often develops haze.  Another
surprising thing I've found is that long-term storage at refrigerator
temperatures appears to have detrimental effects.


John Peed
Oak Ridge, TN



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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:02:29 -0600
From: "Doug Hurst" <dougbeer2000 at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: diacetyl as a result of CP filling

Chad Stevens wonders what could be causing diacetyl in a CP filled bottle.

One possibility is that the CP system somehow introduced a Pediococus 
infection into the bottled beer.  Pediococus is renown for producing 
diacetyl.  The beer was bottled in January and it would most likely take a 
couple months for the Pedio to become noticeable.  You might also be able to 
detect a slightly higher level of cloudiness in a Pedio infected beer when 
compared to the same unifected beer.  Pedio is one of the most common beer 
spoilers and is often present even in seemingly clean beer.

Doug Hurst
Chicago, IL
[197.5, 264.8] Apparent Rennerian




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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:26:54 -0800
From: "Michael O'Donnell" <mooseo at stanford.edu>
Subject: Re: Pump issues


>Jeff needs to develop a regimen for purging the air
>from the system before mashing.


I definitely had problems until I came up with a purge system.  Don't know 
if it is the best system, but what I did was put a Tee on the output side 
of the pump (at the top of the volute)... one side handles normal outlet 
functions, the other has about 8" of flexible tubing with a valve at the 
end... I run the pump for a second, then raise the hose up to trap any air, 
open the valve to purge... after I do this a couple of times, the pump runs 
like a champ.  It only takes a minute to purge.

cheers,
mike
Monterey, CA



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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:58:25 -0700
From: Chip Stewart <Chip at stewartsplace.com>
Subject: While in Boston . . . .

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005, Alan McLeod <beerblog at gmail.com> inquired about
a Beer Store in Cambridge Mass

> In mid-April, I will be in the Harvard area for a family event weekend
> which may give me likely 27 minutes to find stuff of rare degree for
> the <a href="http://beerblog.genx40.com">beer blog</a> if I can find
> the right shop.   Any recommendations?

As far as I'm concerned, a trip to the Boston area without a visit to
Redbones Barbecue (http://www.redbonesbbq.com) is a wasted trip.  Not
only do they have a couple of dozen exquisite microbrews and imports
(sorry, no BudMillerCoors) on tap, they have some of the best barbecue
I've ever had - in Boston of all places!  Order "The Barbeque Belt"
sampler and you're sure to leave with a doggie bag.

Chip Stewart
Hagerstown, Maryland
Chip at StewartsPlace dot com
http://www.StewartsPlace.com

"According to a new poll only 44% of Americans approve of President
Bush's new plans for Social Security. 44%, or as Bush calls that, a
mandate."
- -- Jay Leno



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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:07:38 -0600
From: "Ronald La Borde" <pivoron at cox.net>
Subject: RE: Pumping sparge water // RE: March Pump 809 issues

>From: jeff at henze.us
>
>Ron - what kind of a pump are you using for your brewing system?
Also,
>what size lines are you running?

Teel/Dayton model 1P677A
The line is 5/8 I.D. which perfectly fits the pump.
You can see it all at: www.hbd.org/rlaborde

>I'm told that the pumps for beer are intentionally low volume pumps
to
>avoid HSA, but personally I'd rather throttle down the flow than wish
it
>was better.

Nah, these pumps never were made with beer in mind.

>I've changed the lines and fooled with my pump enough to know I'm not
>sucking air into the system on the low side, and since I've tested
with
>cool water I know it isn't a problem with the water letting go of its
>dissolved gases.

One more thing to check - the pump housings may have wing nuts which
may become loose. There's an "O" ring to seal the housing halves
together. You could have a leaking "O" ring allowing air to enter.

Ron
=====
Ronald J. La Borde -- Metairie, LA
New Orleans is the suburb of Metairie, LA
www.hbd.org/rlaborde




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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:36:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Hetzel <hetzelnc at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Beer Store in Cambridge Mass

Alan wrote:
In mid-April, I will be in the Harvard area for a family event weekend
which may give me likely 27 minutes to find stuff of rare degree for
the <a href="http://beerblog.genx40.com">beer blog</a> if I can find
the right shop.   Any recommendations?

>From Harvard Sq, take the Red line (the T) two stops outbound to Davis
Sq (you may want to find someone to drive you.. you'll probably leave
with too much beer to carry easily). Find Downtown Wine and Spirits..
the name hides the fact that the place is really beer oriented.
Excellent beer selection. Also, if you have time there is the Cambridge
Brewing Co near MIT.. good food and beer (and you can get growlers).
 -Mike



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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 16:12:17 -0600
From: "MARTIN AMMON" <SURFSUPKS at KC.RR.COM>
Subject: Re. Pumping Sparge Water

When it comes to any pump of the mag drive type the fact is they will not
pump air. An air bubble can be trapped in the pump chamber and no amount of
liquid will move it.   What I have found is to place a T above the inlet
side of the pump bring the material into the horz. side and the bottom vert
goes to the pump,  the top vert side goes up to a ball valve, and from the
valve up 90 straight 90 and straight making 180.  Start the pump shut it off
open the valve and the air will rise into the valve and be bleed off.
Restart the pump and it will be pumping only liquid.  I hard pipe about 99
percent of my system and only use a short piece of hose from the heating
coil to the mash.  Check the hose clamps because this a good source for a
air leaking into the system.  Its just a basic air chamber used in all
pumping for years but with this set up you bleed the air off.
I know clear as mud so send me an e/mail and I will get the big chief tablet
out and draw some pictures.

Its never too early only late.
Martin




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