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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  FAN requirements for fermentation (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Water Analysis (Jeff Renner)
  online homebrew shops (Linda Owens)
  more nutrient and fusels (Matt)
  Re: Water Analysis (Calvin Perilloux)
  Thanks ("Rick Weber")
  another water report ("D. Clark")


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Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 09:05:37 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jsrenner at umich.edu>
Subject: FAN requirements for fermentation

I'm confused.  Steve Alexander tangentially wrote:

> wine must carries ~100-150ppm  of FAN and often
> another ~20-40ppm of nitrogen in ions accessible to yeast.  That's
> not enough for wine fermentation

And yet, it occurs! ;-)

With no help from added FAN sources.  And has for millennia.

As a matter of fact, just try to keep grape juice from becoming  
wine.  (A problem which lead to the development of pasteurized grape  
juice for "unfermented sacramental wine" by a 19th century New Jersey  
prohibitionist dentist and Methodist communion steward named Welch  
and which lead to an eponymous company and a whole industry - see  
http://tinyurl.com/f8k4h).

What did you mean, Steve?

Jeff

- ---
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, jsrennerATumichDOTedu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943
***Please note new address***




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Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 09:44:22 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jsrenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Water Analysis

Dan Jeska <dan at kzoolf.org> wrote from just up the road in  
Kalamazoo (one of the great American place names):

> I got a sample of my well water tested by Ward Laboratories in
> Nebraska, $15 for a household mineral test. ...
>
> Here's the well water analysis for the brewing water I use. <snip>
> Total Alkalinity, CaCO3, 170 mg/L
> Conductivity, 0.51 mmho/cm
> pH, 7.9
> Total hardness, CaCO3, 9 mg/L
> Calcium, Ca, 2 mg/L
> Sulfate, SO4-S, 10 mg/L
> Sodium, Na, 112 mg/L
> Bicarbonate, HCO3, 208 mg/L
> Chloride, Cl, 8 mg/L
> Nitrate, NO3-N, 7.6 mg/L
> Magnesium, Mg, <1 mg/L
> Potassium, K, <1 mg/L
> Carbonate, CO3, <1 mg/L

Dan

It is apparent that you supplied ion-exchanged softened water, which  
isn't really what you want to use for brewing.  The evidence is the  
high bicarbonate and Na+, and low Ca++ and Mg++.  The alkalinity  and  
bicarbonate will have been unchanged by the softener.

AJ DeLange recently posted about brewing with softened water in  
response to a (rare) question from Steve Alexander.  See the  
discussion at http://brew.hbd.org/hbd/archive/4946.html.  While you  
can brew with softened water, there isn't much point to it,  
especially in your case.

You could no doubt work backwards and figure what your Ca++ and Mg++  
are.  Based on the fact that my well water, only 100 miles away,  is  
about 2:1 Ca++ : Mg++, and that you replace one of either ion with  
two Na+. I would put them in the ballpark of 36 ppm Ca++ and 18 ppm Mg 
++.  Your original Na+ level is probably quite low unless you have  
road salt contamination.

BTW, your nitrate level is indicative of some contamination, as the  
natural level would be zero.  The EPA maximum is 10 ppm.  See our  
Michigan tax dollars at work at http://www.gem.msu.edu/pubs/msue/ 
wq19p1.html

I believe I'd spring for another $15 and have the unsoftened water  
tested, and then brew with it.  I suspect that you'll need to add  
some Ca++ to get it over 50 ppm, and either brew with a little dark  
malt - even medium crystal might be enough, or boil and decant it or  
dilute with RO water to reduce the residual alkalinity.  You can get  
RO water from Meijer for $0.29/gallon in your own container.

Jeff

- ---
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, jsrennerATumichDOTedu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943
***Please note new address***




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Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 09:49:07 -0600
From: Linda Owens <lkowens at uiuc.edu>
Subject: online homebrew shops

Rick Weber asked about online retailers (ebrew.com morebeer.com and 
beer-wine.com).
I've had good experiences with ebrew.com and morebeer.com. I haven't 
ordered from beer-wine.com.
I've also had good experiences with northernbrewer.com and kennywoodbrew.com

Linda
Champaign, IL




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Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 10:23:42 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt <baumssl27 at yahoo.com>
Subject: more nutrient and fusels

Bob Tower writes "My question for Matt or anyone else knowledgeable in
such matters is how does a brewer determine the level of amino acids in
a given wort?  What are acceptable levels?"

(First, I am not terribly knowledgable, and merely reported what I
read.)  I don't know if there is a reasonable way for homebrewers to
measure amino acid (or fusel) levels.  Personally, I don't really want
to anyway.  If I make a fusely beer and I used a lot of nutrient, I
will probably skip the nutrient on the next batch--but I'm not sure
I'll take it much further than that.

- --------

I stated my concern that adding nutrients that include FAN to our wort
is likely to increase total fusel levels. Steve said "If your only
choice is to add a mix of FAN to the fermenter at pitching then I
agree" but also noted a bunch of caveats.  

As much as I don't want the main idea to get lost in a sea of less
likely possibilities, some of them are interesting and/or might point
to significant exceptions.

First, there are many different AAs and many different fusels, so the
situation is more complicated than I made it sound.  The papers I have
seen generally deal with what some authors claim to be the most
important (or at least most prevalent) fusel/AA pairs, but it is
possible that there are some AAs that are generally scarce in wort, and
that these AAs correspond to noxious enough fusels that the nature of
the problem is one of scarcity rather than excess.  Since I haven't
seen any data to support this so I'm still betting that addition of
common yeast nutrient blends will be negative for fusels--and it sounds
like this is something Steve agrees with as well.  

(By the way I'm not sure AA/fusel "pairs" is a correct way to describe
it, and maybe that's the NEXT level of complexity, which I also think
is unlikely to be significant in practice.)

Steve: "You should look harder, Matt. There are many papers dating back
to the 1960s which clearly show that adding an amino acid to a ferment
almost completely halts the synthetic pathway for the corresponding
fusel."

I was saying I have seen no papers where addition of AAs to an all-malt
or all-malt+adjunct test wort led to a decrease in *final fusel
levels*.  (Usually studies of certain AAs and their corresponding
fusels)  Are you saying that you have?  If so, were the fusels
significant?

Adding FAN later in the ferment is an interesting idea, especially if
one has a decent idea when the initial AAs are all used up.

Steve: "If you want to brew a barleywine with 20% adjunct I think you'd
be wise to read, and re-read the past two decades of articles on
commercial hi-grav (15-16P) brewing and the tricks developed"

Some of these papers are of course the papers I am talking about,
including one where FAN addition to an adjunct wort led to a faster
(but no more complete) ferment, with higher fusel levels.  (Who knows
how the two beers tasted.)  Anyway, as I said, there has to be a
balance.  Too little FAN could lead to lots of problems, some of which
are worse than excess fusels.  Maybe some of those problems (osmotic
pressure, etc) can be solved by other means (pitching, aeration) rather
than fusel-increasing FAN additions.

Matt




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Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 12:08:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Calvin Perilloux <calvinperilloux at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Water Analysis

I feel like I'm edging in on A.J Delange's territory here, 
but let's try another water analysis, this time from Dan Jeska 
of some unknown location.

His significant ions/data from his water are these:

Total Alkalinity, CaCO3, 170 mg/L
Total hardness, CaCO3,     9 mg/L
Calcium, Ca,               2 mg/L
Sodium, Na,              112 mg/L
Magnesium, Mg,            <1 mg/L
Bicarbonate, HCO3,       208 mg/L
Sulfate, SO4-S,           10 mg/L
Chloride, Cl,              8 mg/L

Wow, that's low calcium!  Dan, your water is almost as close 
to Pilsen as you could get -- except for the massive amount 
of baking soda you dropped in!  ;-)  The carbonate levels are 
pretty high, but what's really surprising is the high sodium level.  

This isn't coming out of a water softener, is it?? 
(Please say no, but it sure looks like it to me.)

One thing I can say is that the analysis you posted looks 
a lot more ion-balanced to me than the previous one that
Larry Kress put up (that said, I'm not an ion-balance expert
by any means).

Oh what to do about the carbonate... I can't tell you
anything easy.  With so little calcium in there already, 
even the boil+aerate/cool/decant process would precipitate 
practically no chalk.  

You should definitely consider adding calcium salts if you
want to brew "hard water beers" like UK Pale Ale; just don't
use calcium carbonate! -- and add a wee bit of magnesium 
as well (e.g. epsom salts), keeping in mind that it is said 
that lots of sulphate *and* sodium combined are a bad thing, 
so practice moderation.

Dark beers will work lots better with your water than pale ones, 
and for soft Bohemian Pils water, you're probably best advised 
to use some hefty dilutions with distilled or RO (Reverse Osmosis)
water, adding just a tiny dash of CaCl2 and MgSO4..

For those interested, John Palmer has some good basic info
on water chemistry:
http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-1.html

Calvin Perilloux
Middletown, Maryland, USA



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Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 19:47:08 -0600
From: "Rick Weber" <rick.weber05 at gmail.com>
Subject: Thanks

Thank y'all for your advice on online stores. Morebeer.com is a sight
I've been looking at a lot lately and it seems a lot of you have
shopped from there with good results.

Cheers!
Rick

- --
"Education: The ability to listen to almost anything without losing
your temper or self confidence."
- -- Robert Frost



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Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 21:04:43 -0500
From: "D. Clark" <clark at capital.net>
Subject: another water report

Hi list,

Okay, I finally got my results back from Ward laboratories.  I sent them 2 
samples.  The first was from my well which I knew was very hard, but also 
tastes just fine.  The second was from a spring that feeds my brother's 
house.  That water also tastes fine but it has always made great coffee, 
much better than my water.  Here are the results:

				well water	
ph				7.6			
sodium			124			
potassium			4			
calcium			114			
magnesium			17			
total hardness CaCO3		356			
nitrate	NO3-N			4.6			
sulfate	SO4-S			12			
chloride			196			
carbonate CO3		less than 1			
bicarbonate HCO3		272			
total alkalinity CaCO3		223			
iron				0.02			
total dissolved solids		720			

and now the spring water:

				spring water
ph				7.8
sodium			5
potassium			less than 1
calcium			45
magnesium			7
total hardness CaCO3		142
nitrate	NO3-N			0.7
sulfate	SO4-S			5
chloride			1
carbonate CO3		less than 1
bicarbonate HCO3		130
total alkalinity CaCO3		107
iron				0.02
total dissolved solids		174

Mineral numbers are all ppm.  It looks like my brother has fairly soft 
water.  If I could get the hardness down a bit, I'll bet his water would 
make some very nice lagers.  Mine on the other hand looks like a 
trainwreck.  Stouts and porters are probably my best bet using it as 
is.  What is my biggest problem here?  I'm talking about the water 
now.  Should I use my well water to mash and the spring water to 
sparge?  Should I not use my well water at all?  Would a blend of the two 
be of any advantage to me?  Which one would you use?

I have always wanted to know what I had in my water, but now that I know, I 
need some help in dealing with what I have.  Any and all comments would be 
welcome.  Thank you.

Dave Clark
Eagle Bridge, New York

					



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