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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


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Contents:
  Re: Hot side aeration (Denny Conn)
  Re: Bacteria and Methanol (Dylan Tack)
  RE: Sherry Pyment from F-pack ("Brian Lundeen")


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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 08:59:10 -0800
From: Denny Conn <denny at projectoneaudio.com>
Subject: Re: Hot side aeration

I haven't been following the whole conversation, so forgive me if this is 
off base, but I do have some personal data concerning mashing in a 
rectangular cooler and the risks of HSA.  A few years back, Brian Lundeen 
was such a vocal proponent of using metabite in the mash that I decided to 
give it a try.  Since I batch sparge in a rectangular cooler, it would seem 
that I was a prime candidate for mash oxidation, if indeed it existed.  In 
addition, I have tasted beers that I believe suffered from mash oxidation, 
so I was interested to see if there might be something I could do to avoid 
the possibility in my beers.  For a year, I experimented with adding 1 or 
crushed campden tabs to my mash tun.  However, I never detected any 
improvement in my beer.  FWIW, I also detected no abnormal oxidation in the 
beers, either before I started using the campden or when I was using 
it.  This lead me to conclude that it was likely that despite my rough 
treatment of the mash, I was not experiencing oxidation issues due to 
it.  I still definitely believe HSA exists and *can* be a problem, but I 
also believe that it's harder to get it than you would suppose.  It would 
appear that batch sparging in a rectangular cooler is not a problem as far 
as HSA is concerned.  And one more data point...Don Lund brewed a batch of 
mid gravity beer that he purposely tried to oxidize as much as 
possible.  He sent me 2 bottles, at about 5 months.  Another BJCP judge and 
I tried 1 bottle at that poinrand another about 2 months later.  The beer 
was no more oxidized that any mid gravity beer would be at 7 months of age.

	--------------->Denny Conn



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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 11:28:27 -0600
From: Dylan Tack <dylan-tack at uiowa.edu>
Subject: Re: Bacteria and Methanol

Another HBD reader raised an issue regarding the link to the methane 
metabolism pathway.  The pathway was for S. Cerevisiae, and not other 
less desirable organisms.  I didn't mention this, but methane metabolism 
appears substantially the same in all the organisms I checked with the 
Kegg pathway database, including:

Methanococcus jannaschii (a methanotroph, i.e. methane-eating bacteria)
E. Coli (hopefully not in your beer!)
Lactobacillus plantarum (no pathway maps yet for L. brevis or pediococcus)
Zymomonas mobilis (another beer spoilage organism)

While this is not an exhaustive list of all organisms that might 
possibly grow in beer, I'm still reasonably confident you won't get 
methanol in your beer without formaldehyde (or methane).

 -Dylan


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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 18:43:06 -0600
From: "Brian Lundeen" <blundeen at mts.net>
Subject: RE: Sherry Pyment from F-pack

> 
> Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 18:27:13 -0500
> From: "Kevin Morgan" <kmorgan1 at localnet.com>
> Subject: Re: Sherry Pyment from F-pack
> 
> 
> I've made several of the wineexpert kits with the F-pack.  
> The F-packs are added AFTER stabilizing.  Don't count on the 
> F-pack containing "anti-fermentation"
> agents,  other than that I can't think of any reason not to 
> use them in a Pyment
> 

Tim Vandergrift of Winexpert wrote in a winemaking forum, "F-Packs not only
contain sorbate, and sulphite, they also have a measure of sodium benzoate,
plus they are acidified to lower the pH. They can't be easily fermented". 

This does not mean they can't be fermented, but you need a strong, active
yeast population when you add them. People have reported successfully
fermenting out an f-pack added into a 23 liter kit at the height of
fermentation. If the goal is to keep the pyment dry, then that would be the
approach to take. For a sweet pyment, just add it after fermentation. 

Cheers
Brian, in Winnipeg



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