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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Dark beers and hangovers (Thomas Rohner)
  Re: refermentation in bottle (Fred L Johnson)
  Mashing of Malted Oats ("Art & Liz  McGregor")
  retail price $1199 Save $1049 Adobe Creative Suite 2 Premium ("Gale Cates")
  Gout?? ("Amos Brooks")


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JANITORs on duty: Pat Babcock (pbabcock at hbd dot org), Jason Henning,
                  and Spencer Thomas



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Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 09:39:07 +0200
From: Thomas Rohner <t.rohner at bluewin.ch>
Subject: Dark beers and hangovers

Hi Ray

First i want to say that my findings are by no way scientifical. But 
over the years, i have my personal empirical proof. I drank my share of 
different beers, not always on the "social" side. I normally don't get 
headaches from drinking beer, but there are some beers that really made 
me to want to kill myself because of the headaches they gave me. I 
think, it has more to do with the yeast and the fermentation temperature 
/ cell count, than with the malt bill.
There is a light colored Lager from a nearby austrian brewery. I really 
like the taste of it, but one bottle or can does it to me. One of my 
worst beer related headaches was from Pete's wicked ale, i had 3 bottles 
of it in Pismo Beach. The next day we needed to check out from the hotel 
at 11 o'clock, we almost had to pay for another night. Then there is a 
selfmade belgian trappist. Interestingly it is the lightest of these 
belgian beers, that gives me headaches. The double "dubbel" and 
"trippel" don't do any harm to me, with the same malt bill and reused 
yeast, just more of the malt. Then there is a rather light colored brown 
ale, that is a likely suspect. The beers, that we ferment the warmest 
are our wheat beers. We use Wyeast 3068 at 21 deg. celsius and i never 
had a problem with them. We do light, dark and (double)bock wheats.
In Kulmbach Germany, there are a couple of retired brewmasters who 
opened a little brewery / brewpub to brew "nonmassproduced decent beer" 
as they call it. They say their beer is fermented at 6 deg. celsius and 
never gives you a problem, no matter how much you drink of it.... We 
usually ferment our lagers at 10-11 deg. celsius, which is almost twice 
the temp. I will contact them, because i want to know what yeast they 
use. I know from books that lagers can be fermented that low, but i 
think not all lager yeasts will do it happily.
To make your friend happy again, you could try to change your 
yeast/fermentation temp./pitching rate. But, the more he likes it, the 
less you you have....

P.S. to the brewers of Pete's: it's more than 10 years since and i 
really liked to drink it. It could have been something else in my case 
and i don't want to shy anyone away from it.

Cheers Thomas



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Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 07:28:31 -0400
From: Fred L Johnson <FLJohnson52 at nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: refermentation in bottle

Keith asks how much yeast he should add to bottle-condition a tripel 
which has been in a secondary fermentor for five weeks. He also asks 
how much priming sugar to add.

For mid-gravity beers that have not been clearing for several weeks, it 
is pretty certain that no additional yeast are required to 
carbonate/condition the beer in the bottle. However, I have had a 
number of large beers (barelywine, old ale) that would not carbonate 
even after six weeks in the bottle when I didn't add yeast at bottling. 
These were had all been in a secondary (or primary) fermentor for a 
couple of months clearing. In those cases, I apparently needed to add 
yeast at bottling and finally got them to carbonate after reopening 
every bottle and dosing each bottle with a little yeast. (I'll get to 
the proper amount in a moment.)

And then there are those breweries (Sierra Nevada, as an example) that 
regularly bottle-condition the beers. I have always heard that these 
breweries cleared the beer and then added yeast at bottling time. 
Finally, this very week, Jamil Zainasheff, on his English Barleywine 
podcast, revealed how much Sierra Nevada uses to bottle-condition their 
beers.

Jamil says to use a half a Wyeast pack, i.e., half of 100 billion 
cells, or half a White Labs tube, i.e., half of 100 billion cells,  for 
a five gallon batch of beer, stating, "That's about the same cell count 
that Sierra Nevada uses when they bottle their beers." This comes to 
about 2.64 million cells per mL. It's my guess that Jamil has heard the 
actual number and was trying to give us a more easily rememberable 
rule. I'm guessing the actual number is either 2 million per mL or 3 
million per mL.

Thanks, Jamil, if you're reading! I've always wanted to know this 
figure.

Regarding the amount of priming sugar to add, the source I have (John 
Palmer?)  says Belgian Ales have 1.9-2.4 volumes of CO2. (Lambics and 
wits are much higher. (I really need an expert on the style to comment 
here.) Back to the tripel, to produce 1.9-2.4 volumes of CO2 requires 
26.5-33.7 g sugar per gallon. One should decrease the amount of sugar 
to account for the amount of CO2 already in the beer, but I think 
well-cleared beers that have been completed fermentation weeks earlier 
have pretty close to zero volumes of CO2 left in them.

Fred L Johnson
Apex, North Carolina, USA



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Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 23:26:39 -0400
From: "Art & Liz McGregor" <a.l.mcgregor at verizon.net>
Subject: Mashing of Malted Oats

Spencer,  

Maybe my post in HBD #5209 wasn't that clear.  The oats I used were Malted
Oats, from Thomas Fawcett and Sons.  My local Homebrew supplier can order
them but only in 55 lb sacks, so I have a lot of them left.  I thought that
malted grains did not necessarily need to be mashed since the malting
process converts much of the starch into usable food for the yeast.  I have
use the malted oats in both dark and light beers, and usually try a mini
mash them, but when I toasted them it would have ruined the enzymes in the
malted oats, so mashing would not have helped.  BTW, I learned about malted
oats from one of Jeff Renner earlier posts (HBD 2962 on Mon, 22 Feb 1999),
which I copied below for anyone that is interested . . .
- -------------------------------------------
<<<<<<< Beginning of Previous Post extracted from HBD # 2962 >>>>>>>

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:29:25 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: oat malt report and recipes

An update on this rare and overlooked ingredient:

My oat malt brown ale (1.051, 30 IBU, see recipe at end) has really come
into form at nine weeks now.  The 11% malted oats really do make a
distinctive flavor and almost oily mouthfeel contribution, which is much
more evident in the midieval Domesday Ale (50% home malted oats, 24% malted
wheat, 24% malted barley, 2% chocolate, first runnings only, O.G. 1.096, no
hops, no bottle priming), now bottle aging for the millenium.  The brown ale
took some time to clear and is still slightly hazy, probably because of the
beta glucans.

The Domesday Ale  is still very hazy (probably home malted oats are worse
than commercial?), but in the 12th C, ale was drunk from opaque vessels, so
who cares.  This ale is thick!  About 10W40, I'd guess.  Sweet, still, not
very complex this young, some diacetyl and caramel, chocolate and oat malt
aroma and flavor.  We'll see how it is after a year in the bottle.

The only maltster I know of that malts oats is Thomas Fawcett and Sons
http://www.fawcett-maltsters.co.uk/welcom.htm .  The importer for Fawcett is
Claude Bechard, North Country Malt Supply, 12 Stewart St, PO Box 665, Rouses
Point, NY, 12979, 518-297-2604 (yada, yada).  I was very pleased with the
quality of this apparently unique malt, and wish I'd had it for the Domesday
Ale.

Malted oats would seem to be an ideal ingredient for an English or Scottish
stout.  Here the haze doesn't matter.  The only commercial malted oat brew I
am aware of is Maclays Oat Malt Stout, which is available in the U.S.,
although I haven't tried it.  (Arcadian of Battle Creek, MI has an oatmalt
stout, but it is made with flakes, and it is unclear to me after email
exchange with the English maltster that they are definitely malted.  They
definitely are non-diastatic.)

Protz's _Real Ale Almanac_ has this about Maclay's: 1.045 OG, ABV 4.5%, 50
deg. color EBC [roughly 25L], 35 IBU.  70% Marris Otter pale ale malt, 22%
malted oats, 6% roast barley, 2% chocolate; Fuggles whole hops.  He calls it
a "Luscious, silky stout based on an 1895 recipe."

I hope someone will try brewing this this winter (I have too many others
planned).  I don't know what yeast Maclay's uses, but any of the more
characterful British ones would do well, I'd think.  I like Strathcona (see
below).

Anyone who brews this please report back.

Here is the outline of the brown ale:  For *7.75* gallons, 1/4 bbl:
Untreated temp. hard Michigan well water; 9 lbs. Paul's pale ale malt, 2
lbs. Durst Munich, 1.5 lbs. Fawcett oat malt, 0.75 lbs NW 60L crystal, 0.75
lb. Durst 90L crystal, 3 oz. Scotmalt chocolate; 2.0 oz. whole Cascade 5.0%
alpha for 65 minutes, 0.5 oz. homegrown Cascade 22 min., 0.4 oz. ditto 7
minutes, 0.5 oz. ditto at heat off (but with 10 minute settling steep); top
cropped repitched YCKC "Strathcona" yeast (NCYC 1332).  I was cleaning out
the closet and don't think the malt brands are real important. 

Jeff
 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943

<<<<<<< End of Previous HBD Quote >>>>>>>
- -------------------------------------------
Hoppy Brewing,

Art McGregor
<A.L.mcgregor at verizon.net>
(Northern Virginia)





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Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 09:09:17 -0800
From: "Gale Cates" <romana at odyssey-farms.com>
Subject: retail price $1199 Save $1049 Adobe Creative Suite 2 Premium

Retail price: $1799.00 Save $1529 Adobe Creative Suite 3
http://gogisofte.com



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Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 20:27:46 -0400
From: "Amos Brooks" <amosbrooks at gmail.com>
Subject: Gout??

Hi,
     I think I may have gout. (All the symptoms seem to match, Dr's
Appointment scheduled to verify of course.) I've been told that beer
is one of the "trigger foods", particularly the metabolization of
yeast, so filtered beer from mass market is less likely to cause
problems.
     I was wondering if others have looked into this and what they
have learned. Particularly I would like to know if yeast is the key
and if so are there any species of yeast that is less likely to be
problematic? I really love brewing but if I want to chop off my foot
due to the pain in my toe and the beer is causing it, that would be a
real tragedy! Top it off with a hobby of fencing and it brings tears
to ones eyes.

Any Advise?
Amos Brooks


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