---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: pbabcock at hbd.org


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Contents:
  re: slow traffic ("Matt Wallace")
  Call for Judges and Entries for Las Vegas Winterfest 2008 (Scott Alfter)
  Samichlaus (Thomas Rohner)
  Re: Samichlaus (Scott Alfter)
  future of HBD (fredscheer07)
  Diacetyl Update ("Keith Anderson")
  RE: samichlaus ("J. Ben Schafer")
  HBD Perennials ("Alexandre Enkerli")
  galena ("Jeremy Bergsman")
  critters in the water? (leavitdg)
  Re: Slow Digest and Transition ("Aaron Hermes")
  Re: bread/yeast/yada (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Re: Slow Digest and Transition ("Pat Babcock")


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JANITORs on duty: Pat Babcock (pbabcock at hbd dot org), Jason Henning,
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Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 21:10:57 -0800
From: "Matt Wallace" <dubious.chewy at gmail.com>
Subject: re: slow traffic

 ...I suppose there's nothing like the prospect of imminent demise to
provoke a flurry of traffic ;)

As a regular reader/lurker and (very) occasional asker of questions,
I'd like to think that the HBD still has a very important role in the
homebrew community.  The level of discourse here just seems much
higher than at many forums I've frequented (plus, it's free of
obnoxious avatars)

While I've really only been tuned in during this "low traffic" period
of the HBD, I definitely believe that what it lacks in traffic, it
makes up in quality!  For example, I've often wondered whether there
is a good reason to favor secondary fermentation over extended bottle
conditioning, and just the most recent digest entries on lagering in
the bottle have helped shed some light!

Here's to the collected experience of the HBD, with high hopes that
the conversations will continue indefinitely.

Best,
Matt in Oregon


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Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 22:34:51 -0800
From: Scott Alfter <scott at alfter.us>
Subject: Call for Judges and Entries for Las Vegas Winterfest 2008

How about a Winterfest that's actually held in a winter month?

Las Vegas Winterfest 2008 is just weeks away, on 9 February 2008.  We're
looking to grow the competition back to what it used to be, and we need your
entries!

Two bottles and $7.00 is all it takes to get your beer, mead, or cider in.
Shipped entries are accepted 21 January to 1 February.  If you're coming
from out of town to judge or steward, you can save a few bucks and bring
your entries with you.

This year's competition will be held at the Freakin' Frog, on Maryland
Parkway across from UNLV.  We'll need all of the judges and stewards we can
muster; if you're interested, send me some mail.

For more detailed info, see our competition webpage:

http://www.nevadabrew.com/twiki/bin/view/Competitions/Winterfest08Announce

If you're not familiar with Las Vegas or don't know where to find the
Freakin' Frog, look no further than this link (split across two lines because
HBD barfs on long lines):

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=4700+Maryland+Pkwy,+Las+Vegas,+NV&i
e=UTF8&om=1&z=15&ll=36.104873,-115.137234&spn=0.023647,0.053301&iwloc=addr

Thanks, and good luck to all entrants!  I'd especially like to thank in
advance the judges and stewards, as without them, homebrew contests just
don't work. :-)

Scott Alfter
scott at beerandloafing.org


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Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 07:43:11 +0100
From: Thomas Rohner <t.rohner at bluewin.ch>
Subject: Samichlaus

Hi Paul

the Samichlaus is still brewed every Dezember 6.
What has changed is the brewery that brews it. It used to be brewed by 
Huerlimann in Zurich Switzerland. Since Huerliman has been taken over by 
Feldschloesschen Brewery and then finally by Carlsberg, they closed down 
the Huerlimann brewery.
It is now brewed at the "Schloss Eggenberg" brewery in Austria and you 
can still buy it through different channels. At least here in Europe...

http://www.schloss-eggenberg.at/site/srt_samichlaus.asp?id=139

Cheers  Thomas


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Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 22:50:42 -0800
From: Scott Alfter <scott at alfter.us>
Subject: Re: Samichlaus 

Paul Niebergall wrote:
> Has anyone heard a rumor that Samichlaus is being brewed again.
> Supposedly it is the first bottling since 1986.  Anybody else her about
> this? 

Rumor?  It's been in continuous production (well, as continuous as Samichlaus
gets) for at least most of the past 10 years.  Last year, some local beer geeks
put together a vertical with (IIRC) the '96, '01, '03, and '05 releases.  I
know someone who's trying to round up an example of every year back to 1988 for
a more extensive vertical; he's only missing two or three, last I heard.  In my
own stash, I have three '05s and need to keep an eye out for '06 when it hits
the market (should be soon, if it hasn't happened already).

  _/_  Scott Alfter
 / v \ Visit the SNAFU website today!
(IIGS( http://www.nevadabrew.com/   Top-posting!
 \_^_/ rm -rf /bin/laden            >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?



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Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 12:34:22 +0000
From: fredscheer07 at comcast.net
Subject: future of HBD

HI All:

The HBD is (in my humble opinion..) not only a valuable
tool for HB, NO, it is valuable for professional Brewers too.
Jeff R is right, we are getting older and tend not to spent
much time with homebrewing, or on the computers.
I see that with some Homebrew clubs. Membership is getting
less and less, participation in events is not there anymore.
The nice thing about the HBD is that we know each other
(almost...), tasted each others beers etc.
I'm guilty too for not being as active here as I should,
but I promise to do the same. Also, why don't we all
put some $$$$ together and sent to the Janitor for help with
the HBD server. I will do exactly that, Pat, please give
me the address etc. and the money it's on his way.

Fred Scheer


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Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 08:26:16 -0500
From: "Keith Anderson" <keithxanderson at gmail.com>
Subject: Diacetyl Update

Asked the HBD list a few months back about a diacetyl problem I had
with WY2206 and figured I would update.

I had fermented with Wyeast 2206 at ~50F degrees and then went
straight down to ~32F degrees without a diacetyl rest and had a beer
that smelled and tasted like a bag of microwave popcorn.  Got lots of
responses privately and decided to add about 2 cups of actively
fermenting wort to each keg (made 10 gallons).  I drank my way through
the first keg with the flavor slowly fading but never really clearing
up and figured the 2nd keg was a lost cause and let it sit for a few
months.  Well, 2nd keg is cleared up with no smell/taste (to me) of
diacetyl.  So a combination of more active krausen plus time cleared
the diacetyl up eventually (was about 3 months aging time).

Made another batch with 2206 and this time let it ramp up to ~68F
degrees for the last ~1/3 of fermentation for a diacetyl rest which
avoided the problem altogether.  No noticeable popcorn smell or
flavor.  2/3 of the fermentation was at ~50F degrees.

After doing some reading (zymurgy, internet, etc) it seems that
pitching at a colder temp (less than 50F degrees) may allow you to
avoid ramping up to this > 60F degree diacetyl rest.  Anyone pitch
lagers in the low 40F degree range?  Have you been able to avoid a
diacetyl rest?  Seems that is the traditional way of doing things.

Keith in Chapel Hill, NC


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Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 09:22:14 -0600 (CST)
From: "J. Ben Schafer" <schafer at cs.uni.edu>
Subject: RE: samichlaus

Paul asked:

> Has anyone heard a rumor that Samichlaus is being brewed again.
> Supposedly it is the first bottling since 1986.  Anybody else her about
> this?

I can attest to the fact that Samichlaus is being brewed (although in
Austria rather than Switzerland if I recall correctly) and has been for
several years now.  I have several bottles of the 2005 bottling at home
(we cracked one around the fire on Christmas day) and am sure I saw the
2007 bottling in the store.

Ben

_________________________________________________
J. Ben Schafer
Associate Professor
Department of Computer Science
University of Northern Iowa
Cedar Falls, IA, 50614
(319)-273-2187
schafer at cs.uni.edu
_________________________________________________
"Always behave like a duck --
   keep calm and unruffled on the surface
   but paddle like the devil underneath."
      -J. Braude


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Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 09:50:57 -0600
From: "Alexandre Enkerli" <enkerli at gmail.com>
Subject: HBD Perennials

Mike in Kent, WA teases:
"Perhaps it's time to revive the discussion of counterflow wort
chillers versus immersion chillers?  Or the virtues of Clinitest
tablets?"

You know... Maybe it is, in fact, time to revisit some of those topics.
Wait, wait! Bear with me.

Along with Fred and Jeff (who have both contributed so much to the
Digest), I think that the HBD is a very valuable resource to fight
brewing FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt). But it's probably difficult
for many people to wade through the HBD archives. The discussions
about chillers and Clinitest tablets have become almost like "inside
jokes" for HBDers (along with batch sparging and wombats). Like other
forms of esoteric knowledge, these items can look a bit strange to
outsiders. Since the HBD's mission isn't to exclude anyone, it'd be
useful to have some method to increase exposure of HBD-discussed
issues. Yes, including Clinitest tablets.
The more I think about it, the more a system to tag individual
messages in the 20+ years archive of HBD sounds like a reasonable
approach. While everything on HBD is public, it would make the content
more accessible and informative to new people.
In other words, it is my strong impression that the best way to fight
misinformation is broad and easy access to accurate information. Kind
of a "preemptive" strategy.

The "Clinitest discussion" is a good example, actually.
In Google, a search for "clinitest beer" (without quotes) digs up
HBD#4708 as the first result and #4911 as the first "sub-result." The
first digest includes a somewhat recent post by DaveB on the subject,
the second one contains two of SteveA's posts on the subject (in
response to yet another post by DaveB). Now, anyone who has spent any
time on the HBD probably knows that this discussion has been going on
for a while (at least since #412 in 1990). Yet it's very hard for a
newbie brewer to wade through all of these messages. Just think about
someone who started brewing a few weeks ago, learnt about Clinitest
because of a diabetic friend, and does a search for "clinitest beer."
Interestingly enough, the first result for "clinitest brewing" in
Google is a page by SteveA, on brewinfo.org (which appears as the
second result for "clinitest beer"). That page contains a
straightforward and thoughtful explanation of SteveA's perspective on
the issue. Here's what shows up, in the Google results, as that page's
summary:
"For a peek at the WRONG way to debate the usefulness of Clinitest in
brewing, click here. Oh... I just found another interesting post, this
one from Andy ..."
The newbie brewer mentioned above might still not know what to do with
that page (assuming s/he skims through results). More FUD, not less.
Part of the issue is with the way Google works. Yet, for lack of a
better search tool, many newbie brewers are left in the dark.
How could it be done better?
Well... How does the following scenario sound?
Individual messages about Clinitest are tagged "clinitest." Author and
date information is available for each message. Some of these messages
have been rated by HBD readers and the public at large ("+1
insightful"). Messages can be sorted by date, rating, or relevance.
Links between messages in the same thread (DaveB's response to SteveA,
AlK's response to DaveB) can be followed (as they have been handcoded
by some kind souls). Other tags appear such as "controversy,"
"reliability," or even "humor." There could even be "stickies"
summarizing each side of the debate. And, maybe, author profiles of
participants in the discussion. Everything to ensure that a new reader
can make her/his own mind on the subject. Critical thinking at its
best.
No?

By the way, when I talked about "transition" in my previous message, I
didn't mean to imply that the Digest should be retired and/or replaced
by another system in the near future. I mostly meant to say that, if
Pat does end up having to let it go, we have done something with the
content and are ready to bring HBD goodness with us elsewhere. Was
thinking about a timeframe of about two years with the HBD going on
for another 20 years after that.

A final point, lest I give the wrong impression: Traffic and quality
are not correlated on a mailing-list such as the HBD. But the way
"knowledge" is managed online does seem to relate to statistics. In
such a context, it would be good to make sure the HBD isn't buried too
deep in search results.

Respectful cheers!

- --
Ale-X in Austin [1133.6, 227.4deg] AR
http://enkerli.wordpress.com/


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Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 10:19:31 -0800
From: "Jeremy Bergsman" <jeremy at bergsman.org>
Subject: galena

Since two people suggested Galena, let me say that some
people--including me--get a bad "ashtray" character from galena, even
when used as a bittering hop.
- -- 
Jeremy Bergsman
jeremy at bergsman.org
http://bergsman.org


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Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 14:44:21 -0500
From: leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: critters in the water?

Boy;

 Looking at some of these protazoa makes one want to filter:

http://research.plattsburgh.edu/Ciliates/Tableview.asp

 I ran into this while looking up a friend's photography work.

 How about a Protazoa Porter?

Darrell



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Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 15:57:20 -0500
From: "Aaron Hermes" <Aaron.Hermes at seguetech.com>
Subject: Re: Slow Digest and Transition


For me, I just can't post? I've read the digest for years,
and love it, but everything I send (even after
following the directions) gets bounced.

I'd guess I'm not the only one in that boat, but the 
others who are can't speak up to say the same...


aaron



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Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:08:47 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <jsrenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: bread/yeast/yada

"steve.alexander" <-s at roadrunner.com> wrote:

>  So where is the resident baker on this topic ?

Just busy and woefully behind on HBDs.

> Long before the NY Times "discovered" the
> method there was a book, "No Need to Knead" by ??? Dunaway that  
> covered
> the topic of minimal kneading well.

I see that that book was published in 1999.  I have been using this  
method since the late 70s.  I began my French bread business in 1979,  
and only mix the dough enough to get a homogeneous mass, and then  
give it a few turns on the bench after it comes out of the mixer (20  
qt. Hobart).

I can't remember for sure how I came up with this idea.  I got my  
basic recipe from Julia Child's two volume book on French cooking,  
but she recommends kneading.  I may have discovered it empirically  
after realizing that I got a whole lot more flavor with long, cool  
rises (fermentations), but that the gluten broke down if I kneaded it  
too much.  I suspect that some of my discovery came from reading  
bakery engineering and science texts, where I discovered that  
mechanical kneading and fermentation both accomplished much the same  
thing as far as gluten development.

At any rate, I give the dough a 12 hr first rise, then another four  
hours before shaping it into baguettes.

> You may be surprised at the impact
> of merely wrapping the dough 4x on the texture.

Agreed.  I added this step perhaps ten years ago and found that it  
gives a little better rise in the last stage - the proofing of the  
loaves.

That said, for whole wheat sandwich bread, I knead the dough in the  
conventional manner.  I suppose I should try the no-knead there, too.

Jeff

- ---
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, jsrennerATumichDOTedu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943




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Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:31:20 -0500 (EST)
From: "Pat Babcock" <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Re: Re: Slow Digest and Transition

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

On Thu, January 17, 2008 4:17 pm, Aaron Hermes wrote:

> For me, I just can't post? I've read the digest for years,
> and love it, but everything I send (even after
> following the directions) gets bounced.
>
> I'd guess I'm not the only one in that boat, but the
> others who are can't speak up to say the same...

I hear this a lot. Two points:

 o If you follow the instructions in the FAQ on
   http://hbd.org you ultimately can post, since
   part of them tells you how to configure
   free email account which anyone can get.
 o Your post above made it through, suggesting the
   problem may not be with following the instructions,
   but something else interfering with your formatting.

Not trying to be flippant; just an observation.

Here're a couple of tips I've come across over the past
ten years in dealing with the HBD:

 o Don't cut-and-paste into mail destined for the HBD.
   Many mail clients will see HTML or rich-text, etc.
   as the source of the material, and convert your mail
   to multi-part MIME, even though you have set it to
   send only  plain text. Be sure to use "paste special"
   to paste as text if you must cut-and-paste.

 o If your mail client has an "auto signature", make
   sure to turn it off before formatting for the HBD.
   Most of these are at least rich text. See the tip
   above.

- -- 
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan
Chief of HBD Janitorial Services
http://hbd.org
pbabcock at hbd.org




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