---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Re: Stout Yeast (bostech!loc)
  re: Rheinheitsgebot (Darryl Richman)
  Re: copper immersion chiller (Jeff Benson)
  Re: Recommended yeast for mead? (wegeng.henr801c)
  Yeast starter (flowers)
  honey (Russ Gelinas)
  wine from cincentrate (Bill Crick)
  chilling wort (again) (Russell Greenlee)
  siphon filters (Russell Greenlee)
  Yeast for mead, scrub bag? (Paul L. Kelly)
  Assorted Replies (Jay Hersh)
  Re: Lime in Beer (Perry A. Trunick)
  Newsgroup, Liquid yeast? (Bill Crick)
  Homebrew Digest #548 (December 03, 1990) (fwd) (John Freeman)
  stout yeast (florianb)
  Pete's method and temperature (florianb)
  lime in beer (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  kegging (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Guiness "yeast" (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  pasteurized extract (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Chimay (Rob McDonald)
  Re:  Homebrew Digest #549 (December 04, 1990) (Stuart Levine)
  Fermentation Temps/Flow-thru Chillers (BAUGHMANKR)


Send submissions to homebrew%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com
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[Please do not send me requests for back issues]
Archives are available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Dec 90 08:44:12 EST
From: bostech!bostech!loc at ai.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Stout Yeast

Marc Beck was asking about Stout Yeast.  I have two suggestions.
1. Wyeast #1098 (Irish Ale)  this produces a nice smooth, soft finish
to the Stouts.  In fact this is the only yeast I use for Stouts
and Porters now.
2. Brewlogic Stout - I tried this once and it made a almost a Cream
Stout.  The problem with this one is that it took forever (>2 months)
to get my order back from these guys.  And I don't even know if they are
in business anymore.  I found their add once in Zymurgy a couple 
of years back.  If their service would have been better I would have
continued buying from them.

Enjoy,
Roger Locniskar


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Date: Tue, 4 Dec 90 06:24:09 -0800
From: darryl at ism.isc.com (Darryl Richman)
Subject: re: Rheinheitsgebot

Regarding the nature of the language in which the Rheinheitsgebot is
written, my German friends tell me that they have a case of legalese over
there that just won't quit.  They call it Beampter Deutsch (bureaucratic
German), and it was probably this that Mark Twain was referring to when he
told a friend that he didn't yet know how the German novel he was reading
would turn out since he had not yet gotten to the verb.  (Pretty good
imitation, eh? ;-)  Anyway, to my untrained eye, there are only a half
dozen "sentences" in that law, but it stretches for a page and a half,
and they probably run on much worse than the above.  The combination of
that along with 500 years of anachronisms and compounded by the fact
that it was written in Bayrische (Bavarian) rather than Hoch Deutsche
(high German, usually considered to be the standard, except of course,
by the Bavarians).  On this same subject, I repeatedly heard sentiments
at the Oktoberfest this year like "Now that East and West are getting
together, when will Bavaria join Germany?"  Regionalism is hardly
showing the sniffles let alone dead.

		--Darryl Richman

P.S. On the brighter side, Lo"wenbra"u had a sign up in front of the
brewery advertising what jobs were available.  They're looking for
brewers and are also taking on brewer and maltster trainees.  Write
to Lo"wenbra"u Brauerei, 8000 Mu"nchen.


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Date: Tue, 4 Dec 90 9:34:25 CDT
From: Jeff Benson <benson at chemsun.chem.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: copper immersion chiller

Mike McNally writes in HD 549:

> Could somebody who knows anything (i.e., more than me) about chemistry
> tell me why I shouldn't worry about copper entering my wort from my
> copper immersion chiller?  The wort is of course hot, and somewhat
> acidic; something in the dim recesses of my brain tells me that copper
> is a pretty excitable element in such situations.

Well, to put it simply, Mike, there are acids, such as those present in
wort, and then there are "ACIDS!"  In other words, the acids in
wort will have negligble effect on the copper of your chiller.  Copper
is chemically similar to silver and gold (those three elements are in the
same column of the periodic table) and all are comparatively inert.  So
erase those worries that your beer contains nitric acid (an "ACID!" that
will dissolve copper) and relax.

I'm no biochemist nor an expert on chemical toxicity in animals but common
sense tells me that if copper were as nasty as, say lead, that we
wouldn't use copper (or some copper alloy) as the material of choice for
water pipes in modern home construction.  Anyone know what the
recommended limit is for copper intake in humans?

Jeff Benson
benson at chemsun.chem.umn.edu

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Date: 	Tue, 4 Dec 1990 07:58:44 PST
From: wegeng.henr801c at xerox.com
Subject: Re: Recommended yeast for mead?


>Which yeasts are best for mead?

I think that it depends on what recipe you're using (ie. how much honey per
gallon) and how dry you want the mead to be.  Using the somewhat stardard
recipe of 2.5 gallons of clover honey to one gallon of water to produce a still
(uncarbonated) mead, I found Red Star Pasteur Champagne yeast produce a product
that was too dry and lacking flavor.  Red Star Montrachet yeast (using the same
ratio) was more suitable, for my tastes.  At this moment my partner and I have
a batch fermenting using meV. mead yeast, and I report on the results in a few
months.

Obviously, your mileage may vary from this depending on how much honey you use
per gallon (in other words your starting Specific Gravity), the type of honey
that you use, etc.  I have one book (by someone from Cornell, I forget the
exact title) that recommends using more honey per gallon, but I haven't tried
this yet.

/Don

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Date: Tue, 4 Dec 90 10:08:45 -0600
From: flowers at csrd.uiuc.edu
Subject: Yeast starter

I found a box of some brewing supplies which were nearly a year old.  I
made a yeast starter out of yeast just to see if it would still wake up. 
Although a bit slower, it did start after a little after a couple of days. 
There is a large layer of deposit on the bottom of the starter bottle and
the liquid is quite cloudy.  I would to try to save this yeast, just for
the hell of it.  I plan on transferring to another starter to save the
yeast that has survived.  My question is:  should I use the cloudy liquid
in the new starter and discard the bottom layer as bad or, use the bottom
layer and dicsard the cloudy liquid?  The first night, the yeast all
settled to the bottom, so I think that the cloudy liquid is now the yeast
that became active.

Also, in general, when increasing the size of a yeast starter, do you use
the entire original starter or just the slurry bottom layer?

 -Craig Flowers
 HBD subscriber since #444
 (flowers at csrd.uiuc.edu)

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Date:     Tue, 4 Dec 90 11:01 EST
From: <R_GELINA%UNHH.BITNET at mitvma.mit.edu> (Russ Gelinas)
Subject:  honey

Duane Smith asked about substituting honey for sugar/malt in a recipe.  I've
used honey only once (2 lbs. with 4.5 lbs. malt).  It took a *long* time
(2 months) before the beer was drinkable (it was an ale, not ment to be
lagered).  Then it was ok, but still sort of honey-sweet. So, I'd
recommend using only 1 lb. of honey in your first batch (and get good
honey, I used a cheap super-market brand, and I think that didn't help).
Be prepared to wait, even using only 1 lb.  (Thinking back, the batch
probably had more like 5.5 lbs malt and 2 lbs. honey)

I suppose more hops would be a way to cut into the sweetness, too......

Russ

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Date: 4 Dec 90 15:47:32 GMT
From: bnrgate!bnr-rsc!crick at uunet.UU.NET (Bill Crick)
Subject: wine from cincentrate


Someone asked about wine from concentrate. You can make good wine
from good concentrates. However they will take longer than 4 weeks.
The recomendation of 6 months aging for whites, and more than a year
for reds is a good one. Even the four week wine kits benifit from several
months of aging.

As far as how good a wine you can make from concentrate? Well I entered
my 1988 Barbaresco from Wine Art's Project Wine Cellar in the Eastern
Ontario Amatuer Winemakers competition. These people make predominantly
(exclusively??) wine from grapes, or fresh pressed juice.
This wine won second place! During the reception, a lot of people told me
that it was not possible to make good wine from concentrate? It seems
the judges who tasted blind, felt differently.
 Note: I know very little about wine. I just follow the instructions on the 
can!

Overall, you can make good wine, and beer from concentrates.
You can also make good beer from mashing all grain, but you drastically
increase the number of variables that you can screw up. If you get everything 
right, you will get excellent beer, but if some of these additional variables
go wrong, your beer can turn out worse than beers from concentrates.
Granted, you have more control with mashing, but if you find a concentrate
that has the characteristics (manufacturer had the variables where you'd like 
them) you want then the concentrate can create excellent beer.

The same applies to wine. I know a fellow that would never consider 
using concentrates. He has produced some excellent grape wines. He has 
also "Dumped several hundred litres of 'cat piss' down the drain", and 
produced wines "best served with smelts, or anchovies". He has more variables
than his processing can presently handle!
I on the otherhand, with no skills have created 6 or 7 good wines from 
concentrates with no screwups!!

I'm not saying one or other is bad. Just bear in mind how many variables 
your present skill can handle, vs. how much control, and variability you 
want/need.

To the person who squeezes his hop back to get every bit of goodness, I'd 
recommend against it. You are also squeezing protiens from the hot break
into your wort.

Anyone know why it takes some of my posts severl weeks to appear?

Bill Crick Brewius, Ergo Smashed %-)




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Date: Tue, 4 Dec 90 08:44:53 MST
From: Russell Greenlee <russell at russell.uswest.com>
Subject: chilling wort (again)


Just a quick follow up on my questions about chilling wort to
near freezing with a counter flow chiller. As others have 
pointed out, it is very difficult to get that kind of temp.
drop with reasonable flow rates. But on my last batch I had
an interesting experience. Since I don't have a big enough
pot to do a full boil, my boiled wort has a very high sp.
gravity. By the time it's at room temp. it gets really viscous
and syrupy, which reduced the flow through the chiller to
a mere dribble. At that rate the final 15 ft. of tubing
immersed in a salt water and ice bath brings the temp. right
down to freezing (it just takes forever). Also, if anyone
out there is going to try this, make sure that you have the
wort flowing well before setting the tubing in the bath.
Otherwise any liquid sitting in the tubing can and will
freeze, plugging up the chiller.

Russell Greenlee
russell at uswest.com

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Date: Tue, 4 Dec 90 08:46:19 MST
From: Russell Greenlee <russell at russell.uswest.com>
Subject: siphon filters


The other day while brewing, my cousin came up with a very
simple and elegant alternative for straining trub, hops, etc
while siphoning. Instead of filtering at the intake, try
putting the straining bag on the output side. Undesirables
get caught in the bag, and you don't need to worry about
keeping the straining bag away from the end of the tube
since the out going wort naturally pushes it out of the
way. The bag can be as big as neccessary. The only draw-
back to this technique is that the siphon must be able to
pass everything that is to be filtered, so it might not
work too well for straining leaf hops. I've have excellent
results using a very fine mesh nylon hops bag to strain out
pellet hops, trub, and even leaf hops (I use a fat siphon).

Russell Greenlee
russell at uswest.com




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Date: Tue, 4 Dec 90 12:12:00 EST
From: pkel at psych.purdue.edu (Paul L. Kelly)
Subject: Yeast for mead, scrub bag?


I have made several batches of mead-type drinks, all sparkling, all but one
of which I used Red Star Pasteur Champagne yeast.  All but one batch (the one
not with Red Star) have been wonderful, and make both me and my wife grin and
giggle in a very ridiculous manner.  As far as making them sparkle, I just
prime with about 3/4 to 1 cup of corn sugar when I bottle, and within about
two-three weeks I have nice lines of bubbles flowing up from the sides and
bottom of my champagne flutes (uh-oh, I'm getting thirsty!).  BTW:  With
something of as high an alcohol content as mead brewed with wine yeast, don't
expect a head of foam.  You'll have bubbles, but no foamy crest.  Sorry, but
too much surface tension with a higher alcohol content.  At least that's what
I understand.

What's this about a hop-bag/scrub bag?  I must have missed that one at some
point.  What is it?  How do you do it?  What use is it?  Am I missing some-
thing?

Newsgroup:  No.  Keep the digest just the way it is:  perfect.  Thanks Rob.

Salud,

Paul

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Date: Tue, 4 Dec 90 11:23:53 EST
From: hersh at coco.ctc.tasc.com (Jay Hersh)
Subject: Assorted Replies


Kegging:
  The cheapest CO2 tank and regulator (2 gauge 1 for the tank pressure, 1 for
 the line pressure, the only kind worth getting) was $115. The cheapest
 Cornelius kegs I have seen were in the $35 range for 3 or 5 gal. of course
 you can always "borrow" the kegs from someplace and often can find them
 at weird places like Out-of-Business Sales when a restaurant goes under
 or at garage sales. The problem with the latter sources as opposed to an
 outright above board purchase is the quality of the seals and fittings.
 I "borrowed" some kegs and the seals leaked. I returned the borrowed
 kegs and bought reconditioned ones with much better seals. Replacing the
 seals and fittings is possible but it ends up costing as much or more
 than buying a reconditioned keg.

Guinness Yeast: 
  US Guinness is brewed in Canada. To the best of my knowledge there is
 NO yeast in these bottles folks.

Yeast for Imperial Stout:
 I would recommend the Wyeast Sierra Nevada Ale. I have heard excellent 
 reports and that it is highly attenuative. My past IS recipes I've used
 a mix of champagne and ale yeasts. While the champagne yeast does take
 over the ale works long enough to give some fruitiness. The champagne
 then predominates giving a high alcohol level and warming mouthfeel.

Lager Yeast Starts:
 I have made 2-3 lagers per year in past years. I would start the yeast
 at room temp, chill the wort to room temp and then pitch the started
 yeast. After the first signs of activity (either bubbling or yeast 
 visibly swimming around and munching sugar) I'd move the carbouy to
 the cold room (temp mid 40s) and let it go. It would take 24-48 hours
 to chill down. I would then ferment in the primary 2-3 weeks and in the
 secondary 2-3 weeks before bottling. This worked well all but one time
 when the yeast got stuck in the secondary.

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Date: Mon, 3 Dec 90 20:37:24 -0500
From: ag297 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Perry A. Trunick)
Subject: Re: Lime in Beer



RE:  Lime in beer

The British also serve lager with lime if you ask for it.  Not
surprisingly, it's called Lager 'n' Lime.  They also do what is
called Shandy, which is a variation of the lager and lime as I
recall.  Mostly (a publican told me) women order shandy.  It's
because they don't quite like the taste of beer I would guess
and the lime helps in that respect.

- --
                     The most important thing you have to know
                     in life is yourself.

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Date: 4 Dec 90 19:27:35 GMT
From: bnrgate!bnr-rsc!crick at uunet.UU.NET (Bill Crick)
Subject: Newsgroup, Liquid yeast?


 First: Having started the big newsgroup flap, I'll withdraw the question.
       I agree that the S/N is good in this group, and reading it using
      rn, it makes no difference to me. I believe our site has a single
     entry on the list, and it is distributed from that account to the rest
    of us.

Second: A friend started a pack of Mev 001 lager yeast, which didn't inflate
       in time for the beer, so he put it in the fridge for 2 days, and gave 
      it to  me. It was left at room temp for two days until it puffed up,
     and then put in a starter, at which point it died. I've  listed 
    below what I think I did. Does anyone see why it should die? I've used
   the procedure below for hydrating/starting a hundred dry yeasts?


 -A drinking glass, and bottom of a saucer are sterilized with boiling water.
 -1/2 tsp of white cane sugar,  1/4g of Andovin super nutrient, and 250ml of
 boiling water are added to the glass, and it is covered with the sterilized 
 saucer and set aside, until the temps equalize. Room temp is about 70F. 
 -The yeast packet (very inflated) and the starter were left for  about 10 hours
 (overnight) side by side. I then opened the yeast packet, and put it in the
 starter. 
 -No activity for two days. Not one bubble!
 -I sterilized a spoon, and agitated the starter assuming the boiled starter
 didn't have enough oxygen to allow the yeast to reproduce. I did see some 
 bubbles come out of solution as I stirred it.
 -No activity for two days. Not one bubble on the surface.

I'm wondering if the Andovin Supernutrient killed it? I could see a lack of
oxygen limiting reproduction, but the existing active yeast should have lived,
and produced some activity???

Anyone have any ideas??

Bill Crick   Brewius, Ergo Sloshed.



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Date: Tue, 4 Dec 90 14:14:42 CST
From: jlf at poplar.cray.com (John Freeman)
Subject: Homebrew Digest #548 (December 03, 1990) (fwd)

> Taking all the entries like these for a complete fermentation and converting 
> the date and time to cumulative elapsed hours and adding "glubs per minute" 
> the data for this fermentation looks like this:
> 
> 
> elapsed hours   seconds per glub   glubs per minute temperature
>   
>    6.00           10.00             6.00          53
>   16.00            5.00            12.00          52
>   25.00            4.00            15.00          51
>   31.00            2.50            24.00          51
>   40.00            1.71            35.09          51
>   48.00            1.00            60.00          51
>   54.00            1.00            60.00          51
>   64.00            1.18            50.85          51
>   74.00            1.36            44.12          51
>   87.00            1.82            32.97          51
>   98.00            2.22            27.03          51
>  104.00            2.40            25.00          51
>  112.00            3.75            16.00          51
>  122.00            5.50            10.91          51
>  126.00            5.90            10.17          51
>  136.00            9.60             6.25          51
>  146.00            9.0              6.67          51
> 

For those of you running X Windows, filter the data above with awk
and pipe the result into xgraph like this:

	    awk '{print $1, $3}' | xgraph

> But converting to show the 
> change in remaining fermentables the data look like this:
> 
> elapsed hours   % fermentables  cumulative
> 		 remaining         glubs
> 
>     0.0           100.0               0
>     6.0            99.5            1080
>    16.0            97.2            6480
>    25.0            94.0           13770
>    31.0            91.0           20790
>    40.0            84.1           36744
>    48.0            74.3           59565
>    54.0            64.9           81165
>    64.0            50.5          114419
>    74.0            38.2          142909
>    87.0            25.2          172972
>    98.0            16.7          192770
>   104.0            12.6          202134
>   112.0             8.4          211974
>   122.0             4.9          220047
>   126.0             3.8          222577
>   136.0             1.7          227502
>   146.0             0.0          231377
> 
> If the data from the first two columns above is plotted you will see the type
> of reverse "S" curve that is frequently found in the brewing books.

Again, use awk and xgraph, and see that it really is a smooth S curve!

	    awk '{print $1, $2}' | xgraph

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Date: 04 Dec 90 13:02:02 PST (Tue)
From: florianb at tekred.cna.tek.com
Subject: stout yeast

...Yawn...wow!  Did I sleep that long?  What day is this?  Gee, I really
missed you guys.

Mark Beck wants to know:

	I'm interested in brewing a Russian Imperial Stout, and I'm looking
	for suggestions as to what type of yeast would be best for this brew.  

Try Wyeast #1084 Irish Yeast.  Smooth, very attenuating, quick.



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Date: 04 Dec 90 13:22:19 PST (Tue)
From: florianb at tekred.cna.tek.com
Subject: Pete's method and temperature

Thanx and a tip of the hat to Pete Soper for the detailed method of
fermentable calculation.  His note ended with an important comment:

>ground 45 degrees just before being used.  I really believe that if commercial
>lager brewers can pitch at low temperatures and get fast results we can too. The
>problem in my opinion is that as homebrewers with liquid yeast cultures we
>are usually pitching way too little yeast or fumbling the temperature changes
>in the wrong way.

The importance of temperature control cannot be overstated. Graphs of the
typical fermentation temperatures of European and US brewing can be found
in "The Practical Brewer."  When I have closely controlled my fermentation
temperatures, I have consistently brewed.  When the temperature is poorly
controlled, I have noticed, in addition to slow fermentation, such effects
as yeast shock, turbidity, sulphur smell, and wierd tastes.  Case in point
was a recent Munich lager that went on a temperature roller coaster ride 
between 40 and 60 degrees, when my frige acted up.  It took on cloudiness
which has persisted after several months of cold lagering at constant 
temperature.

Florian

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Date: Tue, 4 Dec 90 15:16:53 mst
From: hplabs!hp-lsd.cos.hp.com!ihlpl!korz (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: lime in beer

I have heard that the origin of lime in mexican beer is that
when they started putting beer in cans and storing the cans
in the back room of a dusty bar, the cans would have a layer
of dust on top when you received your beer.  The patron would
then look around for something with which to wipe the top of
the can.  Hmmm, how about one of these limes set out for the
tequila?  Sure, that will work.  One day some marketing-type
saw this and thought they were putting the lime in the beer.
Voila! a stupid tradition was born.
Al.


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Date: Tue, 4 Dec 90 15:43:05 mst
From: hplabs!hp-lsd.cos.hp.com!ihlpl!korz (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: kegging

My kegging setup cost was pretty high -- I went will all new
equipment.  I bought the Foxx homebrew kit, but upgraded to 
a 20lb tank and a two gauge regulator and bought two additional
kegs.  The grand total was about $300 including shipping.
Then I bought an 18 cubic foot chest freezer from Silo for
$368.  Finally, I bought a Hunter Energy-Miser (r) thermostat
with a remote sensor for ~$30 from Builder's Square (only available
in some regions, but ask them to special order it if they don't stock
it).  Sensor into freezer, thermostat into outlet, freezer plug into
thermostat outlet, and set the thermostat to 45F.

To avoid sucking trub from the bottom of the keg, I cut exactly
one inch from the bottom of the pickup tube (a tubing cutter is
recommened -- if you don't own one, take the tubes to a hardware
store that sells tubing and use theirs).

With used equipment you could easily cut the keg equipment cost
in half and get a fridge for $50.  Total cost could be as low as
$200.

One note of caution:  I believe that you need a regulator made
for CO2 -- there are different ones for Nitrogen, for example.

Speaking of Nitrogen, in Ireland, Guiness Stout is dispensed with
Nitrogen.In Toronto, there is a brewpub called (I believe)
The Rotterdam at which they use Nitrogen to dispense their beer.
They brew upstairs and serve on the main floor.  They used to
use CO2 to dispense, but the beer got overcarbonated, so they
switched to Nitrogen since it is not as soluble in beer as CO2.
I don't know if this is why Guiness is dispensed with Nitrogen
or not.  I did not notice the Nitrogen and the beer was good
but (North) Americanized (weak flavor, too cold).  I understand
the same people own The Amsterdam which is much smaller and
contains less yuppies -- maybe the beer there is more authentic.

Al.


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Date: Tue, 4 Dec 90 16:45:10 mst
From: hplabs!hp-lsd.cos.hp.com!ihlpl!korz (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Guiness "yeast"

I'm afraid that you won't be able to culture yeast from the
Guiness Stout you get here.  It's been filtered and pasteurized.
I suggest Brewer's Choice (Wyeast) Irish Ale Yeast.
Al.


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Date: Tue, 4 Dec 90 18:31:17 mst
From: hplabs!hp-lsd.cos.hp.com!ihlpl!korz (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: pasteurized extract

I don't believe the unpasteurized bit.  The temperatures
used to concentrate the wort into extract will, as you
have suggested Marc, denature the enzymes.

Since I'm posting, I might as well throw in my two cents on
a couple of other questions:

Kevin Carpenter asks:
>My local supply shop tells me to prime and bottle only "when all
>visible fermentation has ceased".  I have recently read that
>I should bottle after fermentation has slowed substantially...  So,
>which is it?  My first two batches are now 3 and 4 weeks old
>(the 4 week has been racked twice) and both are showing a slow
>trail of bubbles up the sides of the carboys.  Is it time (or past
>time) to prime and bottle?

Personally, I simply use the same Zen-like method as Jay Hersh to decide
when to bottle/keg:  when it appears that the beer has stopped fermenting
(depends on the yeast, amount of fermentables, and most importantly
temperature).  Four weeks at 68F should be enough, but four weeks at 33F
is definately not enough.  There is no such thing as past time if you
are using two-stage fermantation -- the only problem with waiting too
long before bottling or kegging is yeast autolysis (the breakdown of
cell walls by self-produced enzymes).  You should probably get the
beer off the trub after 6 or 8 weeks if you don't use a secondary.  I
usually rack from the primary after the krauesen falls (after the initial,
intense fermentation is over ~3 days at 68F) and then let it sit in the
secondary for 3 to 10 weeks (for ales) at 65F.  I've just recently
purchased a beer fridge and will finally try a few lagers which I
will probably keep in the secondary for about 8 weeks at 45F and then
another 8 weeks in the keg at 45F.

Also, Marc Rouleau writes:
>Dave Miller advocates single-stage fermentation in his book, The Handbook
>of Home Brewing.  My understanding of his point of view is that if you
>get good hot and cold breaks before you begin fermenting there won't be
>any trub off of which to rack your beer.  He advocates chilling the wort
>to below pitching temperature to maximize precipitation of trub, racking
>to the fermenter, and pitching at fermentation temperature.  Given this
>procedure, he thinks that it's better to wait until the fermentation is
>done (1 glub/minute) and then rack to a 5 gallon carboy (possibly topping
>up with water) for settling/clarification and/or lagering.

Yes, but...  you will always have dead yeast which you still want to rack
your beer off.  I have never read Miller, but doesn't he suggest bringing
the wort temp down to about 33F and then back up to pitching temp?  If
that is what you plan to do with your wort chiller, you'll be chilling
forever. 

Mike Schrempp writes:
>The one thing I keep meaning to try is to get a graduated cylinder,
>fill it with water and invert it in a pan of water then run a tube
>from the airlock into it. This would be a way to measure the
>actual amount of CO2 produced. 

I think you'll need an enormous graduated cylinder -- I almost failed
Chem, but I'll bet you produce over 2000 liters of CO2.

Re: Chimay Ale

If you read the Chimay bottle, you will notice that they use naturally
occuring (read, wild) yeast (which also carries in a lactobacillus (sp?)
infection).  They filter (and no doubt pasteurize for US sales) the
beer and add a second, cultured yeast at bottling.  Culturing Chimay
yeast may give you a good yeast, but it is not the yeast they use in
primary fermentation.

Finally, I'd like to applaud Mike Fertsch for his honesty:
>Using Pete's numbers, and making some outrageous assumptions, I calculate
>5.66E24 molecules of ethanol in his beer.  Making some additional 
>unreasonable asumptions, Pete's beer contains 9.3 percent alcohol by 
>weight.  I'm probably off by around a factor of two, but the order of 
>magnitude is okay.

In other words, you calculate that Pete's beer contains between
4.65 and 18.3 percent alcohol by weight.  I concur. :^)

Al.



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Date: 	Tue, 4 Dec 1990 01:19:16 -0500
From: Rob McDonald <rob at maccs.DCSS.McMaster.CA>
Subject: Chimay


>      ...It was mentioned that there is a recipe for
> Trappist ale in "DAVES" book. Is that Home Brewing by Dave Miller?
>                               Thanks:  Bob T.

This was probably a reference to Dave Line's book, "Brewing Beers Like
Those You Buy"", Amateur Winemakers Publications Ltd., Andover, Hant.
There is a recipe for Chimay on page 141.

.....rob

EMAIL:   rob at maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca  <<< Standard Disclaimers Apply >>>
ARCHAIC: Steltech, 1375 Kerns Rd., Burlington, Ontario, Canada, L7P 3H8.


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Date: Tue, 4 Dec 90 19:30:17 -0800
From: levin at CS.UCLA.EDU (Stuart Levine)
Subject: Re:  Homebrew Digest #549 (December 04, 1990)

Please remove my name from net.homebrew. Thanks
stuart

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Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 00:01 EST
From: BAUGHMANKR at CONRAD.APPSTATE.EDU
Subject: Fermentation Temps/Flow-thru Chillers

I tried posting this just before Thanksgiving but the text didn't
make it through, so here goes again.  Even though it's late, it
nonetheless refers to Jeff Benson's question in HBD# 549  concerning
lager fermentation temperatures.

In HBD#541:

Russ Greenlee  asked about a method for chilling wort down to 32 
degrees before pitching it. 

Dave Logsdon at Wyeast told me that its a good idea to pitch
at 70-80 degrees then put your wort into the refrigerator.
By the time the yeast wake up and get to work [and apparently they 
like waking up to 70 degree temperatures instead of 32 degree temps--as a 
matter of fact, so do I. :-) ]  then the wort will have cooled down 
to 32 degrees and you're off and running.

The biggest problem I have with pitching at 32 degrees is the extended 
lag period.  I'd rather get my yeast up and going as soon as possible 
rather than try to achieve nothing but 32 degree wort from the git-go.

Russ also mentioned, as an aside, that he was aware of the trade-offs 
of using a flow-through chiller.  What trade-offs?  I know that some 
worry about sterilizing a flow-through chiller.  But it's the same as 
sterilizing an immersion chiller.  Run boiling wort through it before 
filling it with water and let the boiling wort do it for you!  That's 
what you do with immersion chillers, isn't it?  Then finish your 
session with boiling water to cut the sugars and re-sterilize. 
The really paranoid like me follow that up with some sterilant 
solution that is always handy.

I sleep better knowing that I've siphoned boiling hot (sterilized) 
wort through a chiller that cools it immediately.  A slow cool makes me 
nervous because you never know what can get into the wort once the 
overall temperature gets to around 120 degrees.  And there you are in 
your kitchen with your precious wort exposed to all sorts of stuff...

Back to the present:

In HBD# 549, Lt. John Van Hove asked about culturing yeast from a
Guinness bottle.  You can't do it from the Guinness they ship to the
US because they pasteurize it for export.  You must either start with
a bottle of Guinness that was sold in Ireland or buy a yeast culture
from Wyeast that was cultured from one of those bottles.

To Marc Rouleau:

$40 is the going price on the Corona Grain Mill.  It's a great 
product.  Please look in the All-Grain issue of Zymurgy for an article
written by my late friend and homebrewer supreme, Mike Morrissey, who
describes how to attach a drill to the Corona Mill.

Kinney Baughman                           | Beer is my business and
baughmankr at appstate.bitnet                | I'm late for work!



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End of HOMEBREW Digest #550, 12/05/90
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