---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  RE: Lager 9n9 lime and Shandy (Iain_P_Harding.Wbst129)
  Soda kegs - how do I sanitize them (Mark.Nevar)
  straining,stout yeast,copper, etc (Bill Crick)
  Lime in Beer (Arun Welch)
  Lime and Nitrogen in beer (Eric Pepke)
  Mikes Math (Jay Hersh)
  Pasteurized extract (Donald P Perley)
  Pacific dry (mike_schrempp)
  Shandy (foster)
  Oh God, not Al vs. Stainless again!!! (krweiss)
  Re: Homebrew Digest #549 (December 04, 1990) (Perry A. Trunick)
  Chimay *goofup* (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Refer Set-up Costs (Rad Equipment)
  my mistake on stout yeast (florianb)
  Guinness (Mike Charlton)
  WYeast American Ale Yeast (Mike Charlton)
  Reconditioning Kegs (Rad Equipment)
  yeast autolysis (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Chimay yeast (mcnally)
  Continental Pilsner by Larry Miller (Norm Hardy)
  Yeast Culturing Technique (techentin)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 	Wed, 5 Dec 1990 04:40:36 PST
From: Iain_P_Harding.Wbst129 at xerox.com
Subject: RE: Lager 9n9 lime and Shandy

Lager 'n' lime is usually a proportioned as a dash of lime in a Imperial pint
of Lager. Shandy is proportioned ,depending on the publican, as about half
Sparkling lemonade and half lager. A Bitter or Mild shandy can also be obtained
of relatively the same lemonade / beer proportions. While usually served to
women beer shandys were popular with the younger set before the advent lager.
The Shandy being of slightly smoother less harsh taste, less heavy as well as a
lighter color appealed to those not yet weaned on the men's stuff.

Iain P Harding		A Englishman Abroad
Xerox - The Document Company

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Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 07:39:25 mst
From: Mark.Nevar at hp-lsd.cos.hp.com
Subject: Soda kegs - how do I sanitize them

I posted this last week, but got no response.  So, I'll try again:

I finally got some soda kegs to use.  I need to know how to sanitize
them.  Cleaning isn't too hard, but I'd like to hear your procedures
on kegging.  This is how I see it:

Clean keg.
Sanitize - bleach ? what about the valves ? Leave them on, boil, what ?
Add priming syrup.
Inject a little CO2 to act as a buffer (CO2 should sink to botom).
Rack beer to keg.
Install lid.
Inject CO2 to seal o-ring.

Seems easy enough, but how do you clean/sanitize the keg itself ?

Here's something new:

I got a new catalog from Alternative Beverage in NC.  They sell
used kegs for 19.95 (as advertised in Zymurgy).  But, the lids
may not have pressure release valves on them.  They sell reconditioned
kegs for 35.95 which have been cleaned, have had the lids replaced,
and have new o-rings installed.  I have heard you can swap old lids
for the new ones from the company.  But what company ?  Is it free ?
All in all, the reconditioned key sounds pretty good.  I know Art's
Brewing in Utah sells kegs for 25.00, but are they reconditioned
or do they guarantee pressure relief lids ?  I remember some people
placing orders with them.  How did it turn out ?

The new catalog also lists attenuation of all WYeast strains.  I don't
have it here.  Would everyone like to see it ?

Mark Nevar



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Date: 5 Dec 90 15:36:09 GMT
From: bnrgate!bnr-rsc!crick at uunet.UU.NET (Bill Crick)
Subject: straining,stout yeast,copper, etc

The idea of putting a straining bag on the output of the siphon sounds good.
Even with leaf hops, if you use a big enough tube. You could use an old 
nylon for the strainer?

Speaking of big siphons, how do you get your grain from the mash tun to the
lauter tun? The last batch we did, a friend decided to try siphoning 
it with a large diameter hose. He was able to get all the liquid, and about
80% of the grain to go through the siphon. This was less tedious than ladling
it out with a pot. It also seemed to create a good bed in the Zapapp lautertun.
I forget if we used foundation water, but we probably did.
If you stir around the suction end as it siphons you might be able to get all 
of it. Note this was a step infusion mash, with a protien rest, so it was 
fairly sloppy. The hose was about a 3/4' ID. You probably could use a 1"
blowoff tube?

Isn't copper the traditional material for mash tuns, and boiling kettles
in breweries? Stainless steel is being used in new setups, but what was used
50 years ago? Copper is cerrtainly the material of choice in clandestine 
stills ;-0

Bill Crick  Brewius, Ergo Smashed %-P

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Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 10:34:02 -0500
From: Arun Welch <welch at cis.ohio-state.edu>
Subject: Lime in Beer

> They also do what is
>called Shandy, which is a variation of the lager and lime as I
>recall.

A shandy, (or shandygaff, which it's the short form for), is 1/2 and
1/2 beer and lemonade. At the bar I worked at for a time in northern
Germany it was called a moorwasser (Moor water, as it looks like the
water in a swamp). In England it's typically known as a women's drink,
but in Germany it was used as a way to quench the thirst without
getting too much alcohol (it was the only bar in a small farm village, and
the farmers would typically get one when they came in for lunch). God
forbit those Germans drink straight lemonade :-).

...arun
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Arun Welch
Lisp Systems Programmer, Lab for AI Research, Ohio State University
welch at cis.ohio-state.edu


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Date:    Wed, 5 Dec 1990 10:47:20 EST
From: PEPKE at SCRI1.SCRI.FSU.EDU (Eric Pepke)
Subject: Lime and Nitrogen in beer

The English have "lager & lime," which is lager mixed with a little bit of
sweetened lime juice such as Rose's.  There is also "lager with a lime top"
which is the same, though more care is taken not to overmix the lime juice with
the lager.  For some lamentable reason, lager and lime is the drink of choice
among the English version of yuppies, and lager is displacing the much more
complex and traditional English bitter.  It is becoming nigh impossible to find
a pub that can make a mild & bitter any more, but they all have Budwieser taps.
Even though their Budweiser is much superior to ours, still I say, "Yuck."

"Shandy" is a drink made with half bitter and half "lemonade."  "Lemonade" is
a drink similar to 7-up or Sprite with the difference that it is slightly less
fizzy, slightly weaker, and for some odd reason contains both sugar and
saccharine, which to me gives it a slightly soapy taste.  There is also "lager
with a lemonade top."  Shandy is a very thirst-quenching drink and is often
preferred on hot days to replace fluids.  Youngsters are often allowed to drink
shandy in the home before they are allowed to drink beer.  (It is not illegal
to give alcohol to teenagers in Great Britain, as long as it's not in a pub.)

(Aside--Some people are upset about the use of the word England.  I use it 
because I am much more familiar with England than I am with Wales or Scotland,
and I have never even been to Northern Ireland.)

"Radler" is a Bavarian form of shandy made with German lager.  The name comes 
from the German word for bicyclist.  It is a popular drink for the designated
driver, which is a common tradition in Germany.

Dave Line says that Guinness is pressurized with nitrogen rather than with
CO2 because it gives a smoother, stiffer head with tinier bubbles.

Eric Pepke                                     INTERNET: pepke at gw.scri.fsu.edu
Supercomputer Computations Research Institute  MFENET:   pepke at fsu
Florida State University                       SPAN:     scri::pepke
Tallahassee, FL 32306-4052                     BITNET:   pepke at fsu

Disclaimer: My employers seldom even LISTEN to my opinions.
Meta-disclaimer: Any society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers.

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Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 10:20:42 EST
From: hersh at coco.ctc.tasc.com (Jay Hersh)
Subject: Mikes Math

Al K writes:
>I will probably keep in the secondary for about 8 weeks at 45F and then
>another 8 weeks in the keg at 45F.
Wow what patience!

Mike F: Hope you don't balance your checkbook the same way you did your
math on Pete's figures 8-)!!

Kinney writes:
>I sleep better knowing that I've siphoned boiling hot (sterilized) 
>wort through a chiller that cools it immediately.  A slow cool makes me 
>nervous because you never know what can get into the wort once the 
>overall temperature gets to around 120 degrees.  And there you are in 
>your kitchen with your precious wort exposed to all sorts of stuff...

My immersion chiller takes 10-20 minutes to cool the wort. Only a few
of those are spent in the critical 120-140 bacteria loving temps. I'd
say your worrying....
 - Jay H

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Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 11:44:28 EST
From: perley at easygoer.crd.ge.com (Donald P Perley)
Subject: Pasteurized extract

Marc Rouleau:
>This line of reasoning sounds kinda fishy to me.  I thought enzymes
>were useful only at the mashing stage.  The mash-out is supposed to
>deactivate them anyway, right?  

Al Korzonas:
+I don't believe the unpasteurized bit.  The temperatures
+used to concentrate the wort into extract will, as you
+have suggested Marc, denature the enzymes.

Edme DMS (diastatic malt syrup) has the enzymes.  At least some
of the extract companies boil the extract under a partial vacuum to
keep the temperature down.

Why keep them, you say?  So you can make partial mashes, with mostly
extract, but some wheat or rice, etc. added.  Even malted wheat is 
kind of low in enzymes, so the DMS lets you mash it easier, without
the "hassles of scale" that a full mash entails.

 -don perley


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Date:         5 Dec 90 07:32 -0800
From: mike_schrempp%29 at hp4200.desk.hp.com
Subject:     Pacific dry

Hello out there,

Has anybody else tried Pete's Pacific Dry? I had some and it had a wonderful
chocolaty smooth taste. I'd like to try making some, but I'm too new to brewing
to even think about making up a recipe myself. Anybody made anything like this?

In another light, it's starting to get very chilly outside. I'm thinking of
trying a lagered beer. What is the common wisdom on leaving a carboy of beer
out in the backyard (covered to keep the light out, of course)? Will the
local critters leave it alone?

Mike Schrempp


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Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 09:47:10 PST
From: foster at rumor.enet
Subject: Shandy

The common definitian of 'shandy' is beer (usually bitter) with lemonade (7UP to 
US readers). The typical proportions are 50-70 percent beer, the rest lemonade.
The result is a slightly alcoholic but very refreshing drink. This contrasts 
with another common habit of adding dash of lemonade to a pint of bitter to take 
the edge off it. There are also other common mixtures of light ale and bitter, 
mild and bitter etc as people choose different beer "cocktails" to suit their 
own personal choice.

 Stan.

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Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 09:41:26 -0800
From: krweiss at ucdavis.edu
Subject: Oh God, not Al vs. Stainless again!!!

OK, I'm going to make this info request as absolutely specific as possible. 
Has anyone out there actually done a side by side comparison of batches brewed 
in stainless steel and aluminum brewpots?

Please, don't reply unless you've actually done a side by side comparison... I 
don't think we need yet another Al vs. Stainless donnybrook. In fact, let's 
just keep all replies to this particular post to email - my address is

krweiss at ucdavis.edu

Reason I'm asking is, I dropped my porcelin pot and put a huge chip in it. A 
24 qt. aluminum pot is $50.00, and the same size stainless is $150. I never 
did get enough information out of the last debate to decide whether Al really 
messes up beer or not...

Thanks, and remember, email back to me directly on this one, not to the 
general list. I'll summarize and post results in a week or two.

Ken Weiss
krweiss at ucdavis.edu


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Date: Tue, 4 Dec 90 21:45:08 -0500
From: ag297 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Perry A. Trunick)
Subject: Re: Homebrew Digest #549 (December 04, 1990)



The post about translating the German purity laws is very true.
What was the date on them?  1500?  15th century?  Language is
one thing which does change (as I recall, the modern German
word for computer is computer).  Some of the text could be
modernized with very little difficulty.  Other more subtle
points WOULD take a scholar.  All of this is assuming the
text was transcribed correctly.  There are very few modern
readers who wouldn't be slowed (even to a stop) by the old
text.  In the post-Nazi era, the old script was discontinued
and modern type introduced.

There may be an updated German version around given that the
purity laws were used in the Cassis Dijon case.

- --
                     The most important thing you have to know
                     in life is yourself.

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Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 11:09:16 mst
From: hplabs!hp-lsd.cos.hp.com!ihlpl!korz (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Chimay *goofup*

Whoa!  I goofed.  That's what you get when I rely on my memory.

When I got home from work, I checked the back of the Chimay
bottle and realized that I had put both my foot and my terminal
in my mouth.  Here's what it says on the back of the Chimay Grande
Reserve bottle:

Since 1862 the Trappist monks of Chimay Abbey in Belgium have been
brewing Chimay ale combining the artesian water of Chimay Abbey with
fine barley malt, an aromatic blend of hops, and Chimay's uniquely
cultivated yeast.  Top fermentation gives Chimay a distinctive
fruitiness of flavor.  Fresh yeast is added just prior to bottling
resulting in the slight sediment which you can see.  This secondary
fermentation in the bottle adds to the ale's richness and body.  The
Trappist fathers of Chimay use exclusively natural ingredients.  This
product has neither been pasteurized nor filtered.

Well, that's not quite what I posted yesterday.  I may be right
about the two different strains of yeast and that the primary
fermentation may be from naturally occuring yeast, but I was wrong
about the filtering and pasteurization.  I'm at a loss regarding the
lactobacillus -- I recall that the Chimay had a lactic sourness
which is certainly present in Lambics, but I've never _read_ anywhere
that Trappist Ales also include a lactic "fermentation."

I will certainly be more careful with my data in the future.

On a side note relating to an earlier posting regarding NOT leaving
the yeast in a Hefe Weizen behind, the Chimay bottle also contains
this note:

The sediment you see is natural and normal.  Pour slowly to allow
sediment to remain in the bottle.

I should be humble at this time, but I can't let this by without a
comment: "This secondary fermentation in the bottle adds to the
ale's richness and body."  Additional fermentation cannot ADD to 
the body -- it can only reduce the body by munching on the 
non-fermentable sugars that give the beer its body.  Either this
is a bad translation or an advertising agency's influence.

Al.


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Date: 5 Dec 90 11:21:13
From: Rad Equipment <Rad_Equipment at rad-mac1.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Refer Set-up Costs

REGARDING                Refer Set-up Costs
In HBD #549 Joe Uknalis <UKNALIS at VTVM1.CC.VT.EDU> asks about costs in building
a tapped refridgerator for beer.  I estimate mine cost about $100.00 to convert
to a 3 faucet system.  The box (16cu. ft.) was free from a friend, the 20lb.
CO2 tank was next to nothing from a garage sale, the regulator was $35.00 (2
gague Corn.), and the rest came from Foxx Beverage in Denver for the above
mentioned $100.00.  I plumbed a 1/4" copper line in for the gas to a 3 way
distributor with check valves to which there are  36" braided gas lines with
ball gas connectors for the soda kegs.  There are three faucets through the
door (I replaced the shelf unit inside the door with that stuff you put around
bathtubs and showers, a sort of glazed masonite material).  The faucets are set
up to 1/4" beverage lines with ball-end connectors.  I also put a lockable box
around the faucets on the front of the thing to keep dirt and unauthorized
access out.  I plan to expand to accomodate Liberty Ale kegs soon, I have the
tap (also from Foxx, about $40.00) since I figure I can fit 1 Sanke keg and 2
soda canisters inside the box.  It is certainly the way to go if you have the
room and can do the work (or you have a friend who can).  Only down side is
that the kegs seem to hold less now that I have set the system up, can't figure
out how that can be...<grin>

Russ Wigglesworth  <Rad Equipment at RadMac1.ucsf.edu>



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Date: 05 Dec 90 12:40:12 PST (Wed)
From: florianb at tekred.cna.tek.com
Subject: my mistake on stout yeast

Yesterday, I flubbed up when stating the Wyeast number for the Irish ale
yeast.  It's #1098, not #1084.  

An acquaintance of mine brews quite good stouts using Edme dry yeast.

Florian


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Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 15:13:13 CST
From: Mike Charlton <umcharl3 at ccu.UManitoba.CA>
Subject: Guinness

  I find it hard to believe that US Guinness is made in Canada.  Canadian
Guinness is probably one of the worst beers I've ever had.  It has no
head, is extremely astringent and has virtually no body at all.  It's
horrible to call it Guinness.  I've had US Guiness and it's pretty
good.  However, the best beer I've ever had was draught Dublin Guinness.
That stuff is amazing!  The reason they use nitrogen is that it helps
head formation.  I can't remember all the details (I believe Line
explains it in "The Big Book of Brewing"), but it is the nitrogen that
is responsible for the nearly gelatin like thickness of the beer.

                 Mike Charlton

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Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 15:28:16 CST
From: Mike Charlton <umcharl3 at ccu.UManitoba.CA>
Subject: WYeast American Ale Yeast

  My brewing partner and I made up a few cultures of WYeast American Ale
Yeast (#1056) to stick away for a rainy day (liquid yeast cultures are
hard to get here), and have have been using them quite successfully.
It is interesting to note, however that the fermentation characteristics
of the yeast are changing as it gets older (This is all first generation
yeast -- ie. we made several agar slants from a single package and
are only using those slants).  One of the most dramatic changes is that
it has turned into a bottom fermenting yeast!  There is virtually no
foam on the top of our fermentors and a huge amount of yeast
sediment at the bottom.  The other thing is that it has become extremely
powdery and takes 3-4 weeks to clear.  My first thought would be that
we just picked up a wild yeast that has taken over the cultures.  The
only problem is that the beer being produced is of great quality (even
better than before).  My other thought was that WYeast #1056 might be
a mixture of S. cerevicae(sp?)  and S. uvarum (carlsbergensis) and that
the top fermeting yeast just died of old age (~6 months).  Does anyone
know?  I know that it passes a standard test for a lager yeast (it
can ferment maltotriose, I believe), so maybe the idea's not too out of whack.
In any case, I think I'll make up a second generation culture of it since
it seems so good.
                   Thanks for any info
                           Mike Charlton

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Date: 5 Dec 90 13:15:50
From: Rad Equipment <Rad_Equipment at rad-mac1.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Reconditioning Kegs

REGARDING                Reconditioning Kegs
Regarding Jay Hersh's comment in HBD #550

> Replacing the seals and fittings is possible but it ends up costing as    
much or more than buying a reconditioned keg.

I have had great success finding used 5 gal. kegs thru restaurant suppliers,
2nd hand shops, garage sales, and right off the soda truck.  These kegs range
in price from $10.00 to $22.00.  Replacing ALL the O-rings and both poppet
valves costs about $7.00 when you buy the materials from places like Foxx. 
Even if you go with the "super" lid ring from Williams, which isn't a bad idea
with older kegs, the cost of the parts only goes to about $15.00 bringing the
total to $25.00 - $37.00 tops.  From what I have seen locally and mail order,
the price for reconditioned kegs usally begins at $40.00.

Russ Wigglesworth  <Rad Equipment at RadMac1.ucsf.edu>



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Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 15:12:23 mst
From: hplabs!hp-lsd.cos.hp.com!ihlpl!korz (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: yeast autolysis

In Digest #550, I wrote:
>are using two-stage fermentation -- the only problem with waiting too
>long before bottling or kegging is yeast autolysis (the breakdown of
>cell walls by self-produced enzymes).  You should probably get the
>beer off the trub after 6 or 8 weeks if you don't use a secondary.

I checked TCJoHB last night and Charlie recommends getting the beer
off the dead yeast after 3-4 weeks.  I may be overly optimistic with
the 6-8 weeks, however how soon autolysis begins is a function of
the health of your yeast (for example, insufficient oxygen during the
resparation phase will give you sickly yeast) and, I'm quite sure,
temperature also.  Last night I kegged a Weizen that I never got around
to racking to the secondary.  After 8 weeks in the primary with a good
1.5" of trub, there were no off flavors in the beer.  I used Wyeast
Bavarian Weizen yeast and made sure that I aerated the wort thoroughly
after cooling.

Al.


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Date: Wed, 05 Dec 90 16:58:05 PST
From: mcnally at wsl.dec.com
Subject: Chimay yeast


It must seem like I have Chimay on the brain, huh?  Maybe it's true. 
Anyway, in HBD 550 Algis Korzonas claims that Chimay is fermented with
wild yeasts, like a Lambic, then bottled with the fabulous creatures I
am so fond of reculturing.  I seriously doubt this.  First, "wild"
beers are produced in only a very limited area of Belgium; I don't
believe that the Chimay abbey is in this are, but is rather far north,
near the Netherlands (I could be wrong in a big way here).  Certainly,
there is none of the lactic acid "ZING" in Chimay that one gets in a
Lambic.  Also, I recollect no mention of wild yeasts in the "Beer
Hunter" interview with the actual Abbey-denizen who isolated the yeast.
 I do agree that in addition to priming, Chimay is given a shot (a
"dossage" as the bottle says) of yeast at bottling.  This might be to
reduce probability of infection; if they filter the beer, then bottle
with fresh yeast, they might filter out other nasty stuff as well.

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike McNally                                           mcnally at wsl.dec.com
Digital Equipment Corporation
Western Software Lab

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Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 20:12:39 PST
From: polstra!norm at uunet.UU.NET (Norm Hardy)
Subject: Continental Pilsner by Larry Miller

The AHA finally sent the new book by Miller.  I read it in two days.
Here is what I think of it:

(1) As a homebrewer for 5 years and a lager fanatic I have done alot of
    reading about making the stuff, including Miller's first book, The
    Complete Handbook of Home Brewing.
(2) Aside from some interesting tidbits about the Czech. beer scene, there
    was VERY LITTLE that was new.  The recipes at the end are short and
    concise with little follow up.  It's almost as if the book ends before
    it really begins.
(3) I purchased the book early to beat the rush.  HA!  After the AHA
    acknowledged my order, they sent a blurb offering the book at a 
    discount to members.  Thanks a lot!
(4) My recommendation is that if you want to get into brewing lagers, and
    don't know much about it, buy the book.  Otherwise, save your money.

Norm Hardy

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Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 22:24:33 -0600
From: techentin at Mayo.edu
Subject: Yeast Culturing Technique

As I sit here sipping my (almost mature) Christmas ale, I am quite
pleased with myself.  My brewpartner and I have successfully recultured
and re-used Wyeast's Irish Ale (stout) yeast using a very relaxing
technique.

We had never paid $4.00 for yeast before, so we wanted to try our hand
at reculturing the stuff back in April when we first tried liquid yeast.
I had read several accounts of yeast cultures ranging from immediately
re-pitching the slurry at the bottom of the secondary (easy) to growing
cultures in petri dishes (hard).  I had also read several accounts of
culturing commercial yeasts such as Sierre Nevada.

We tried several storage methods, including freezing some yeast slurry
with food grade glycerine, but they weren't as relaxed as simply
bottling (and capping) some of the slurry in a twelve ounce long-neck
and tossing it in the fridge.

The slurry (or as my wife refers to it, "that mucky stuff at the bottom
of the bucket") spent from April until early November in the back of the
fridge.  I made up 1/2 liter of starter wort in a wine bottle, added the
room temperature slurry, and in two days had 3/4 liter of happy yeasties
to pitch.

The recultured yeast produced a fine beer.  We had plenty of stanitized
bottles & caps ready when we stored it, so it was really no trouble at
all.  The only problem is that my glass is empty.  :-)

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Techentin                              Internet: Techentin at Mayo.Edu
Mayo Foundation, Rochester MN, 55905 USA             (507) 284-2702
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #551, 12/06/90
*************************************
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