---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Cheap plastic carboy (Liberty)
  Bottles, ad nauseum (S94TAYLO)
  lager brewing questions (Jim Culbert )
  Phoenix brewpubs (revisited) (adietz)
  re: little bubbles (mcnally)
  Brewpubs in Phoneix (and some other stuff) (MC2331S)
  Oatmeal Stout Recipe (Extract) (Patrick Stirling)
  Bottles and a general question. ("DRCV06::GRAHAM")
  Labels, off and on (Carl West x4449)
  looking for info on bocks (tony g)
  Washing Soda (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Right Bottles? (Carl West x4449)
  Any shops in Raleigh, NC area? (gt4393c)
  Samuel Adams Cranberry Lambic ("Ihor W. Slabicky")
  FLAT LAGER  (card)
  Re: Homebrew Digest #568 (Janu (Jueal, Stacey)
  swing top bottles (Bill Hunter [Sun Denver FSE])
  quality of malt extracts (Mark Zaleski)
  roto-kegs (Bill Hunter [Sun Denver FSE])
  Vierka yeast? (Steve Dempsey)


Send submissions to homebrew%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com
[Please do not send me requests for back issues]
Archives are available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jan 91 22:02:01 EST
From: hplabs!ames!rutgers!crdgw1.ge.com!kk4fs!root (Liberty)
Subject: Cheap plastic carboy

I happened to be eating donuts at Krispy Kreame tonight and they were
selling the buckets they get the donut filling in.  I bought one for
$1 and am letting it soak in a weak Cloarox solution now.  The lid is
a very tight fit but it has a rubber gasket.  Do I need to replace this
gasket?  Can I use this as a primary fermenter?  (It is 5 gal.)  Can I
just drill a hole in the plastic lid for the blow-by tube or fermentation
lock?

Paul Schmidt - kk4fs!root


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Date:     Fri, 25 Jan 91 08:48 EST
From: <S94TAYLO%USUHSB.BITNET at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject:  Bottles, ad nauseum

Now I may be a simpleton (may?), but what's the deal with going through all
the trouble of BAKING your bottles.  Is there an assumption that there are
ANY little nasties that can withstand more than 3 parts per million of common
household bleach for more than a few minutes?  Let's put that one to rest.
I have have used the simple bleach method for all of my 20 batches of beer, and
it I wanted to be aggressive, I double the bleach, but even that is probably
unnecessary.  I use 2-4 ounces of bleach per 5 gallons.  None of my batches
have been infected.  Most importantly of all, isn't it a pain to bake your
bottles?!
Perhaps I take those immortal words too seriously, but it always seems to
work:

        RELAX.  DON'T WORRY. HAVE A HOMEBREW.  (and I mean it!)

Al Taylor
Uniformed Services University
School of Medicine
Bethesda, Maryland
s94taylo at usuhsb.bitnet

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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 91 22:27:49+050
From: Jim Culbert <culbert at m43>
Subject: lager brewing questions



With the winter time here I finally have a place in my apartment (the basement)
where temperatures are pretty consistent and cool (the basement is heated to 
~45 degrees to keep the pipes happy). I decided that now was a time to begin
trying my hand at lagers ( I had tried a room temperature fermentation
with lager yeast and the results were pretty mediocre). Also this time 
I was pretty meticulous about sanitation and water preperation (ala Miller's
book recommendation). Ok, my OG was around 1040 and I used a Wyeast lager
yeast (I have the exact one written on my brewsheet at home can't recall
right now). Several unexpected things happened and I'd like some feedback
as to whether these are common to lower temperature Lager fermentations or
whether I fouled up somewhere. Here they are.

1) Very long lag time for fermentation to complete (~10+ days). I know from
miller that the particular yeast I used is slow to start and, no, I did not
make a starter culture but, geeze this seemed awful long.

2) When the fermentation did begin the fermenter was giving off a very 
strong odor. It was kinda "tangy" (but not like vinegar though).

3) I racked to the secondary after about 14 days and the odor was so strong
that I was convinved that I had produced something other than beer and would 
have to toss the lot. But I was going to see this through!

4) I took the fermentation lock off the top last night (~1 month in the 
secondary) and wiffed the contents. Yikes, sulpher-dioxide. Also the
contents of the carboy was pretty carbonated (little "pin-points" that
people have been talking about in the last two digests).

At this point I'm pretty discouraged and am ready to toss the whole batch
without any further ado but I siphone some off and take a SG reading. It's
1012. Hmmmm that seems OK. I taste it. My gosh it tastes pretty dang good.
The stuff has a slight egg bouquet (yuck) but the flavor is good. I bottled
the stuff and am storing it in the basement.

Ok, I have all kinds of theories about what might be at work here (including
prolonged contact with decaying yeast to explain my rotten eggs) but I've 
never encounered this before. Is the stuff OK? Will the sulpher-dioxide 
"go away"? Are there common mistakes made by neophyte lagerers which 
yeild some, if not all, of the odd results I mentioned above? 

At any rate I'd appreciate it if some of you more experienced lagerers out
there would comment. As we have more cold weather for ~2+ months here in
N.E I intend to attempt at least one more lager before returning to ales
for the warmer months (or until I can afford the equipment).

Jim

- -----------------------

Jim Culbert
Intelligent Engineering Systems Lab
MIT
Cambridge, Ma. 02139

jaculber at athena.mit.edu


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Date: 25 Jan 1991   8:56 EST
From: hplabs!ames!rutgers!bellcore.bellcore.com!hera!afd (adietz)
Subject: Phoenix brewpubs (revisited)

Greg Mason asked for info on Phoenix brewpubs.  I too will be out in
Arizona, but for the first week in Feb. and would like info on
any brewpubs in AZ, not just Phoenix.

 -A Dietz
Bellcore, Morristown
bellcore!hera!afd


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Date: Fri, 25 Jan 91 08:26:29 PST
From: mcnally at wsl.dec.com
Subject: re: little bubbles


In HBD571, Fred Condo writes:

    Assuming you don't have an infection, the key word is "secondary." If
    you rack a beer that has fermented completely out, the brief exposure
    to oxygen causes the yeast to biochemically change gears. I've been
    told that it enters malo-lactic fermentation. Whether that's
    technically correct or not, the upshot is that the yeast is triggered
    into fermenting the higher-order oligosaccharides, namely, what brewers
    usually call dextrins, which contribute to mouth-feel/body.

There are two problems with this statement.  First, malo-lactic 
fermentation involves conversion of malic acid into lactic acid.
This process is part of the activity seen in secondary fermentation
of fruit lambic beers, and is brought about by bacteria, not yeast.
It does not involve dextrins.  I don't really see how a yeast can
spontaneously begin consuming dextrins.  One possibility is that
a wild strain that's more attenuative has been introduced.

Second, as Dave Miller repeatedly insists in TCHoHB, dextrins do not
contribute to body.  Protein, and only protein, does.

Sorry I can't say anything constructive.  My beers are sometimes a little
bubbly in the sedimentation tank (I hesitate to call it a secondary,
since there is no intent that the beer ferment; it's for clarification),
but I've never worried about it.

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike McNally                                           mcnally at wsl.dec.com
Digital Equipment Corporation
Western Software Lab

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Date: Fri, 25 Jan 91 11:26 CDT
From: MC2331S at ACAD.DRAKE.EDU
Subject: Brewpubs in Phoneix (and some other stuff)

	When I was in Phoneix last year I went to a nice brewpub in Tempe
(close to the ASU stadium) called the Jabberwocky.  They had a good Cream
Ale and also a Bitter.  You can look through a window to see the brewing 
kettles too.
	On an unrelated subject, most liquor stores will have empties
lying around (if you live in a state with a deposit law).  My partner
and I use Wisconsin Club bottles because the labels come off so easily 
(beer isn't bad either for $10/case).  Of course this is Iowa, things may
be different in other places.

	Mark Castleman
	Big Dog Brewing Cooperative
	MC2331S at ACAD.DRAKE.EDU (internet)
	MC2331S at DRAKE (bitnet)

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Date: Fri, 25 Jan 91 09:34:17 PST
From: pms at sfsun.West.Sun.COM (Patrick Stirling)
Subject: Oatmeal Stout Recipe (Extract)

Mike Tavis asked for an Oatmeal Stout Recipe. Here's one I used recently,
based on another that was also posted in this forum:

	8lb British Amber Malt Extract
	0.5lb Plack Patent grain (cracked)
	0.5lb roasted barley (cracked)
	0.5lb Chocolate Malt grain (cracked)
	1lb Steel Cut Oats
	2oz Eroica (boil)
	1oz Fuggles (finishing)
	Whitbread ale yeast

Procedure:
Crack all grains (except the oats), add to about 2 gal cold water (incl oats),
bring to a boil (my table top range takes almost an hour to do this). Remove 
the grains with a strainer when boiling and add the malt extract and boiling 
hops. Boil for an hour. Add the finishing hops and continue boil for a
minute or two. Turn off heat and let steep for 15min. Put about 4-6" of ice
into a plastic bin and strain the wort into it. Sparge. Bring up to volume
(5.25 gal) with cold water and mix well. I find that the temp by now is
down enough to pitch (i.e. <80F). Rack into 6gal glass carboy and pitch the
yeast (I just throw in the dry stuff). Use a blow off tube for the first couple
of days! I.e. A plastic tube from the carboy into a jar of water. Bottle
when the fermentation is done (usually 2-3 weeks).

I really liked this beer! Dark and smooth with a 'creamy' mouth feel. No
specific oatmeal flavour, but lots of body. A light brown head.

The only problem I had was that after about 3 months in the bottle it developed
a distinct off flavour. could be from the ice I suppose, or maybe it got 
oxygenated during the bottling.

patrick

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Date: 25 Jan 91 13:48:00 EDT
From: "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <graham%drcv06.decnet at drcvax.af.mil>
Subject: Bottles and a general question.

I've been getting this digest for about a week.  I'm gearing up to try some 
homebrewing for myself.  I've seen some notes about bottles.  The 
implication was that long neck bottles are better, or something like that.  
Do I need to use some special type of bottle, or can I save my Guiness and 
Portland Lager bottles.  I'm trying to get some Grolsch bottles but they're 
not common and when full, cost the earth.

I'd appreciate some words of wisdom.

On a broader subject:  I have rather poor eyesight and reading the 
available books on the subject will be most difficult.  My wife does read 
to me, but she isn't particularly interested in brewing, so won't read much 
at a time.  If any of you have on-line material about brewing, beer types, 
chemistry of yeast, etc., I'd appreciate a copy.  I use a talking terminal 
and can listen to anything sent easier than reading books.

Thanks for any help, both on the bottles or on the general subject.

Dan Graham


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Date: Fri, 25 Jan 91 11:29:37 EST
From: eisen at kopf.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Carl West x4449)
Subject: Labels, off and on

I'm new to this digest, so if it's been discussed recently
I missed it.

I've found a good tool for removing the lables from bottles.
A stainless steel scrubbie (`Chore Boy' is one brand).

An overnight soak with a little detergent in the water
reduces the need for elbowgrease, rub or peel off what comes off
easily, then go after it with the scrubbie, and rinse.

Real foil (like on the tops of `Harp' bottles) benefits
from a once-over with the scrubbie *before* the soak.
Last night I soaked two `Harp' bottles, one I `pre-treated'
the other I didn't. This morning, the `pre-treated' one
came clean very easily, the other? it's still soaking.

Some of the lables I was removing were my own. They were
Avery brand peel-and-stick lables that I printed by
running them through the laser printer on manual feed.
I had feared that I would have an awful time getting them
off, but, after a night's soaking they rubbed off very
cleanly, no scrubbie needed.

Glue-stick will hold a label on quite well *unless*it*gets*wet*
at which point it is likely to flop off on it's own. If your
not going to ice your bottles this will work well
and remove *very* easily when the time comes.



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Date:     Fri, 25 Jan 91 16:30:46 EST
From: tony g <giannone at BBN.COM>
Subject:  looking for info on bocks


Folks,

First of all, thanks for all the replies regarding my yard-glass request!

Now, I'd like to hear people's opinions of bock-style beers. Specifically:

  o What are the characteristics of a good bock?

  o What is your favorite commercial bock?

The homebrew club that I belong to is having a bock night (in April). Most
of us are going to try to brew some sort of bock for it. I'd appreciate any
bock info you could provide. Also, if anyone has a (mostly extract) bock
recipe I'd love to get a copy.

thanks,
tony    (The Sparging Flocculaters -- Allover, Ma)

"Blessed is the mother who gives birth to a brewer" -- Inscription on
the wall of a famous Czechoslovakia tavern.



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Date: Fri, 25 Jan 91 15:30:04 mst
From: hplabs!hp-lsd.cos.hp.com!ihlpl!korz (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Washing Soda

Allen writes:
>Just recently I decided to be more ecologically correct :-) and tried
>washing soda instead of detergent.  As far as I can tell, there's no
>difference in the result.

When I used to bottle, I found that washing soda worked well to remove
labels from bottles (even the really nasty foil ones).  However, I
noticed that after soaking in a pretty strong washing soda solution,
when the bottles dried they had a white film on the outside (and on
the inside, I'm sure).  I don't exactly know what the film was, but
it rubbed off without much trouble.  I'm definately not a Chemist,
but I figure that the film (a sort of powder, actually):

1. did not wash off, even with the hottest water,
2. was maybe a product of a reaction between the Wa-Soda and the foil,
3. was maybe a product of a reaction between the Wa-Soda and the glue, or
4. was maybe Wa-Soda itself.

As it turns out, the only way I could get it off was to soak in a lemon
juice and water solution.  Since then, I never use washing soda on the
inside of bottles I plan to refill.
Al.


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Date: Fri, 25 Jan 91 17:07:24 EST
From: eisen at kopf.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Carl West x4449)
Subject: Right Bottles?

rtidd at mwunix.mitre.org writes:

>The only thing is that the Lite bottles aren't quite the right shape/
>size, 

Is this a style consideration? or are there specific hazards to
wrong-shaped bottles?

> but they outta work out if i'm careful when I bottle. 

careful of what? 

I've read all but the hairiest of Papazian, and M.R. Reese cover to cover,
did I miss something?

Carl West


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Date: Sat, 26 Jan 91 10:56:02 EST
From: gt4393c at prism.gatech.edu
Subject: Any shops in Raleigh, NC area?

Hey There,
	I'm trying to find a source for homebrew supplies in the 
Raleigh, NC area.   All pointers appreciated.

Thanks,
 -Ivan    gt4393c at prism.gatech.edu

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Date: Mon, 28 Jan 91 09:39:29 -0500
From: "Ihor W. Slabicky" <iws at sgfb.ssd.ray.com>
Subject: Samuel Adams Cranberry Lambic


I have had the opportunity to try some new brew from the folks at
Samuel Adams - Cranberry Beer.  To quote from their table cards:

	Samuel Adams
	Cranberry Beer

This Cranberry Beer is our version of a
traditional Belgian Lambic.  Like all Lambics,
it is made with fruit, a top-fermenting yeast
and wheat and barley malt.  The portion of
wheat malt produces a lighter taste and rich
creamy head.  After breweing, this wheat beer
is fermented a second time with fresh
cranberries and pure maple syrup is added to
balance the tartness of the fruit.  This beer
combines the tart dry character of the
cranberry with the light refreshing taste of
the wheat beer.  A special New England brew
for the holidays!

My impressions:  it is a light beer with little or no malt taste.
The taste starts off with a fresh sour/tart taste, almost like freshly
made sour milk (just the taste part of fresh soured milk or yogurt,
not the consistency :-) ) and then changes to the tartness of
cranberries.  I can't really tell if there is maple syrup in it
or not (I am used to the taste of Grade B syrup, so any lighter
tasting maple syrups don't do much for me in the taste department). 
The color is a deep rich dark red - almost burgundy, and a nice
head of pinkish foam tops it.  I like the taste and the refreshing
quality or it.  I could see drinking this during hot weather - the
tartness would be quite refreshing, I would think.  Referring back
to their tabel card, I would have to agree with their description:
take a wheat beer, add some sour milk taste to it, add cranberry
juice, sweeten with maple syrup (tho I can't tell), and you have
your Cranberry Lambic!

For those intereted, I had this at Doyle's, located on Washington
Street, in the Jamaica Plain section of Boston, about five blocks
away from the Forest Hills T-station (I may be wrong on the station).
They list it as Cranberry Lambic, and a pint costs $2.75...

Doyle's is a nice place for a brew - they seem to have most of
the Boston area breweries covered, and do bring in some other
brews, also.  They had Anchor Christmas Ale on tap, which to me
tasted like a cold spiced muffin or cold spiced something.
I was not very impressed by the Anchor, and as I was also having
a Cranberry Lambic that night, I did not have the Anchor again.
I have had the Cranberry Lambic a few times, each time I expect 
the milky-sourness I described above to turn bad, but it never
does - each time it tastes as fresh as the first time.

Ihor

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Date: Mon, 28 Jan 91 10:27:01 EST 
From: card at apollo.hp.com
Subject: FLAT LAGER 


    I've got a totally flat batch of light lager. I'm suspecting 
    that I probably killed the yeast (wyeast 2035 USA) by shocking 
    it into a cold fridge (40F). I took the beer out and let it sit 
    for a few days at 65F but no apparent difference. I'm ready now 
    to add a few dry yeast grains to each bottle as Papazian recommends. 

    It's only been abouit 10 days since bottling but I would expect some 
    carbonation by now, although my experience with lager is quite limited 
    (ie. none). Is lager carbonation behavior much different that ales? 
                              

    My brewing procedure went like this: 
   
   *  I pitched the (pre-started) yeast at 68F. SG ~ 1040 
   *  Primary fermentation 5 days at an average of 58F (55-60).
   *  SG 1015
   *  Secondary  at  40F. (probably should reduced in 5F increments) 
   *  very little (1 bubble every 2 minutes) secondary fermentation. 
      Left  2 weeks ~<1015
   *  bottled the cold beer and primed with 3/4 cup corn sugar
   *  returned to refrigerator at 40F 
   *  + 7 days totally flat
   *  removed 3 days to 65F >>> still flat

   * p.s I also primed the last few bottled with molasses>> same 
     results >>>> flat.  
    

   So: 

   1. should I just wait?  Am I just being too impatient?
   2. Add dry yeast
   3. Add 2035 slurry I got from the secondary. Note this was 
      still fairly active (?) higher concentration? 

 

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Date: 21 Jan 91 17:44 GMT
From: JUEAL.S at AppleLink.Apple.COM (Jueal, Stacey)
Subject: Re: Homebrew Digest #568 (Janu

Randall Schrickel writes:
 
I'm getting ready to make my first batch of home-brew, all I need is bottles
to put it in. I know that the returnable type longnecks (Bud & Coors) are
usable, but they're hard to find (and besides, why torture myself emptying them
just to get to the good stuff :-) So, how can I tell if a bottle is OK to be
used for re-bottling via home-brew? I've heard that I could get bottles from a
bar, but I'd prefer not to (don't want to deal with cleaning who knows what).
Thanx in advance.
 
*********************
Hey Randall, there's *GREAT* beer out there to drink that comes in bottles
reuseable for us homebrewers!!!  Here are some of the choices my brew partner
and I lean toward:
 
Red Tail Ale - Mendocino Brewing Co.
Watney's Cream Stout - Watney's
Anchor Steam
Pete's Wicked Ale
Beck's
Caribe
 
ENJOY!!!!!
 
Stacey Jueal, aka, Sweetie of Slug & Sweetie
 
 

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Date: Mon, 28 Jan 91 09:14:01 MST
From: hunter at sunpeaks.Central.Sun.COM (Bill Hunter [Sun Denver FSE])
Subject: swing top bottles


yo,  

does anyone know of a source for swing top bottles and approx. price?
thanks for any help.


"homebrew doesn't kill brain cells, it weeds out the weak ones" ****======
	- bill hunter		bill.hunter at Central 		****======
	homebrewer * parrot head * led head * DoD#139 		==========
"imagine if there were no hypothetical situations..."		==========

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Date: Mon, 21 Jan 91 14:38:02 -0500
From: elmer at snoopy.msc.cornell.edu (Mark Zaleski)
Subject: quality of malt extracts

Has anyone out there had some bad experiences with the quality of Alexanders
Pale malt extract.  I have used this extract a number of times before with
good results.  The pale malt extract usually is golden in color and thinner
than say Munton and Fison but the last can I got was absolutely unuseable.
It was very dark brown in color and thick with lots of little chunks of grain 
floating in it.  I have contacted the distributor I got the can from but
should I write to Alexanders directly.  There is no lot number on the can 
to identify it.
    Mark Zaleski
    elmer at snoopy.msc.cornell.edu

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Date: Mon, 28 Jan 91 14:40:18 MST
From: hunter at sunpeaks.Central.Sun.COM (Bill Hunter [Sun Denver FSE])
Subject: roto-kegs



i'm soliciting opinions, and this may be one of the 
FAQ's, but does anyone have or have experience with
the roto kegs, and roto casks?  how many CO2 units
does it normally take to go through  5 gallons?
does anyone have the EDME 2 1/2 gallon hand pump unit?
around here (denver) the 5 gallon rotokeg is $55 and
the EDME 2 1/2 gallon hand pump is $70.  i would
prefer the hand pump, it's just a lot of loot.  do
any of you bottle half and keg half?  i've never
kegged (as if you couldn't tell).  any opinions will
be appreciated.




"homebrew doesn't kill brain cells, it weeds out the weak ones" ****======
	- bill hunter		bill.hunter at Central 		****======
	homebrewer * parrot head * led head * DoD#139 		==========
"imagine if there were no hypothetical situations..."		==========

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Date: Mon, 28 Jan 91 23:42:38 MST
From: Steve Dempsey <steved at longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu>
Subject: Vierka yeast?


Circa HBD #531 there were a couple of brief postings re: Vierka
yeast.  I ran across a couple varieties of this brand and picked
them up for an experiment or two despite the poor reviews.

Tonight I prepared a starter using the Vierka mead yeast.  At
least it says yeast on the package.  This stuff looks like no dried
yeast I have ever seen before.  It looks more like the non-pelletized
form of irish moss, or maybe herbal tea leaves, or maybe sawdust. 
Lots of oddly shaped and strangely colored bits.  It does not taste
like much of anything and I'm feeling no strange side-effects yet :-).

It was rehydrated at 90F and cooled to 65F over 60 minutes.  The
stuff has not dissolved after 4 hours.  Chunks of unidentifiable
organic matter lurking at the bottom of the starter bottle and
a few floaters appear as slightly bloated versions of the dry
stuff before pitching.  Sure wish I had microscope handy.

Has anyone used Vierka mead yeast before?  Does my description fit
the stuff you got?  How about other Vierka yeasts?

I guess the tried and true Red Star Montrachet will save this batch.
Sigh.

        Steve Dempsey,  Center for Computer Assisted Engineering
  Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523    +1 303 491 0630
INET: steved at longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu, dempsey at handel.CS.ColoState.Edu
UUCP: boulder!ccncsu!longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu!steved, ...!ncar!handel!dempsey

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #572, 01/29/91
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