---

        FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
                Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Lithuanian mead (Joe Uknalis)
  Manchester (Dan Albano - Sun BOS Hardware)
   (Mike Karin)
  Re: Homebrew Digest #661 (June 18, 1991) (Phill Magnuson)
  Miller Genuine Draft (hersh)
  Hops (Heidi Schlitt)
  cloves in weizen beer (Marty Albini)
  Wort bombs and Question about Kegging. (GERMANI)
  bellies, wheat, long head (Carl West x4449)
  Re: Weizen Beer (John Polstra)
  roasted wheat (mcnally)
  4-vinyl guaiacol (C.R. Saikley)
  sorry (pmh)
  Additives & Preservatives (Martin A. Lodahl)
  brewpot source in Boston (Al Duester)
  Emergency Brewpup info needed! (Matthias Blumrich)


Send submissions to homebrew%hpfcmi at hplabs.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request%hpfcmi at hplabs.hp.com
[Please do not send me requests for back issues]
Archives are available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


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Date:         Tue, 18 Jun 91 07:43:26 EDT
From: Joe Uknalis <UKNALIS at VTVM1.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Lithuanian mead


Hey! How about a recipie for that Lithuanian mead!

(Algis- I tried emailing you directly but it keeps bouncing!)

thanks.

- ------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 91 08:59:38 EDT
From: Dan.Albano at East.Sun.COM (Dan Albano - Sun BOS Hardware)
Subject: Manchester

Can anyone provide me with the agenda for the homebrew conference
at Manchester ?

thanks,
Dan

- ------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 91 7:56:42 MDT
From: Mike Karin <mikek at col.hp.com>
Subject:

Please delete me from your mailing list.
Thanks.
- - --
Mike Karin
mikek at col.hp.com

- ------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 91 9:31:41 MDT
From: Phill Magnuson <pmagnuso at hpbsrl.boi.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Homebrew Digest #661 (June 18, 1991)

Please remove me from the Homebrew mailing list.
I have enjoyed it.
Phill Magnuson
pmagnuson at hpbsrl.boi.hp.com

- ------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 91 11:32:15 EDT
From: hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Miller Genuine Draft


I somehow find myself in the unenviable position of saying this but...

M. Bass writes:
> The foam that did stick to the sides of the cup never did subside, even
>after the beer was long gone.  After that experience I can't imagine
>there is _only_ malt, hops, yeast, and water in the beer.

Why not, Good German beers exhibit exactly this type of behavior when poured in
a "beer clean" glass. I've brewed many a homebrew that exhibited nice smooth
carbonation, excellent head, and left a lace. While they may choose to brew
swill for marketing reasons, the skills of the brewers at places like Miller
and Anheuser Busch are actually quite good. It takes a lot of skill to create a
product that while brewed at several different plants across the country,
tastes the same everywhere, state to state, month to month, year to year.
It's just so sad they choose to exercise this enviable skill in th epursuit of
thoroughly lackluster beer.

 Also Tim Dimock says:
>So cut out the junk food (and ice cream and chocolate, sigh...), stop
>worrying, and have a homebrew!!
Tim I must be some kind of alien, cause I eat chocolate every day, and while I
moderate my consumption of ice cream in recent years, I still eat it an average
of 1-2 times per week, yet I have the lowest cholesterol of anyone I know (self
satisfied smirk). I think a good exercise regiment, and otherwise reasonable
diet help a bit.



JaH

- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------
assume that you are moderate in everything.
you now have an excess of moderation, a contradiction.

excessiveness is clearly the way to go...


- ------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1991 8:34:08 MST
From: SQUID at ZEN.RADIOLOGY.ARIZONA.EDU (Heidi Schlitt)
Subject: Hops

A USEFUL GUIDE TO HERBAL HEALTH CARE (HEALTH CENTER for BETTER LIVING, Naples,
FL.) has this to say about hops.

"Valuable for those with insomnia. Will produce sleep when nothing else will.
Has been used successfully to decrease the desire for alcohol. Will tone liver."

Disclaimer: Do I really need a disclaimer?

Heidi Schlitt
squid at zen.radiology.arizona.edu

- ------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 91 8:59:28 PDT
From: Marty Albini <martya at sdd.hp.com>
Subject: cloves in weizen beer

> From: Doug Dreger <dreger at seismo.gps.caltech.edu>
>
> I was wondering I anyone has been successful in making a weisen with
> a medium to strong clove taste?  The local brewpub offers a wheat beer
> that doesn't even have a hint of cloves and several homebrewing friends
> make very good wheat beers that have negligable clove taste.  My HBing
> friends use the wyeast wheat beer yeast.  I don't know what the brewpub uses.

        This has been my experience with the Wyeast culture;
it's actually two yeasts: S. Delbruckii (the weizen yeast) and
S. cerevasii (?) (top fermenting ale yeast). They use a
mixture because they're afraid S. Delbruckii alone would be
too intense for most folks.

        If the fermentation temperature is too low, I think
the ale yeast takes over. S. Delbruckii is just not as
vigorous a yeast as most, and doesn't compete well. I've had
good wheat beer made with it; the secret seems to be to
ferment it warm (70F+).

        An easier way is to get ahold of MeV #033, a pure
weizen yeast culture.

        In my quest for the elusive clove aroma, I've done
some rather extreme things. My first weizen was 100% wheat
extract (Ireks) using the Wyeast, and had very little wheat
character. My second was the same wort (but double strength; I
call it a "doppelweizen") with the MeV yeast, and it is
incredible. LOTS of wheat character.

        To further isolate variables, I'm brewing a barleywine
with lite malt extract with the yeast from the secondary, to
see just what it takes to get the taste. I'll report when it's
ready to drink.

        Hang in there. It *can* be done.
- - --
________________________________________________Marty Albini___________
"To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks."
phone    : (619) 592-4177
UUCP     : {hplabs|nosc|hpfcla|ucsd}!hp-sdd!martya
Internet : martya at sdd.hp.com
US mail  : Hewlett-Packard Co., 16399 W. Bernardo Drive, San Diego CA 92127-1899
 USA

- ------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1991 12:16 EST
From: GERMANI%NSLVAX at Venus.YCC.Yale.Edu
Subject: Wort bombs and Question about Kegging.

Greetings,

   Last night I brewed up another batch and had a strange occurrence.  I pitched
the yeast (started in about 3 cups of wort for about 1hr) at 1am and this
morning at 8:30am I woke up to a wort bomb ready to blow.  I had the wort in a
plastic bucket (7 gal I think) with a fermentation lock on it.  There was only
5 gallons of wort.  With the air lock off foam keeps spewing out the hole in
the lid.  This happened with my last batch and it turned out just fine, so, of
course, I'm not worrying.  I'm just wondering if anyone might know why I'm
getting so much foam.  This has happed once or twice in the distant past also,
but it certainly has not been the norm for me.
   The last time this happened I thought it was the yeast.  It was the first
time that I used Red Star.  But this time I used Edme.  Both times I used two
packets and started them the same way.  I don't think that there is anything
wrong with this, I sure am getting short lag times.  It does make a mess
though.

   This time I'm going to make my first attempt at kegging.  I've seen a lot
stuff pass through the net on this topic and I have a question that I haven't
seen addressed.  It is suggested that, when using a soda cylinder, you
cut the last 1/2 inch off the liquid outlet tube that sticks down to the
bottom of the keg so you don't suck the yeast off the bottom.  However, the
keg that I have (Coke type) has the tube and fitting connected right on to
the cylinder, not the lid.  I see no way of getting the tube out to cut it,
short of undoing the whole fitting.  Is this what is done, or is everyone
smart enough to know not to get this type of keg?
   If I don't cut the tube, will I just be able to suck the sediment off the
bottom with the first few glasses?  If I suck the sediment out too early
will I have problems carbonating?  (I definately prefer natural carbonation).
   Thanks in advance.

                Looking forward to tapping that keg,

                                                Joe

Bitnet: GERMANI at YALEVMS
Decnet: 44421::GERMANI


%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

What care I how time advances:
I am drinking ale today.                        Poe

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

- ------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 91 11:14:23 EDT
From: eisen at kopf.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Carl West x4449)
Subject: bellies, wheat, long head

The trouble with beer, wine, etc. is that the calories add to my mass
and the alchohol adds to my inertia, and the combination adds to my belly.

Is there any difference between weizen, weissbier, and wheat beer? or are
these all names for the same thing? A friend of mine had some weissbier in
germany and loved it. She says she'll do nearly anything ;-) for me if I'd
make some for her.

Michael Bass commented on the suspicious the longevity of the head on his
Miller Genuine Draft. I've got a batch of extract brew that leaves head on
the side of the glass 'til the next day (by which time it's dried out).
I added no heading agents, just amber extract (forgot what kind), Saaz hops,
water, and Whitbread Ale Yeast. Unless the extract had stuff in it that
wasn't on the lable, we can't conclude for sure that Miller is dicking around
with heading agents.

- ------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 91 10:12:23 PDT
From: polstra!jdp at uunet.UU.NET (John Polstra)
Subject: Re: Weizen Beer

In HBD #661, Doug Dreger <dreger at seismo.gps.caltech.edu> asks:

> I was wondering I anyone has been successful in making a weisen with a
> medium to strong clove taste? ...
>
> I propose to mash 6 lbs of wheat malt with 4 lbs of klagges, add about
> 1.5 oz's of medium alpha hops and the wyeast wheat beer yeast.  My
> question what else can I do to help develop the clove taste.  Does
> fermentation temperature play a role?  I am planning on fermenting in
> my refridge at about 55 to 60 degrees.

I think your proposed fermentation temperature is too low.  The wheat
beer yeast is an ale yeast, and should be fermented warm.  Personally,
I try to ferment my wheat beers above 70 degrees.  The warmer the
ferment (within reason), the more clovey esters you'll get.

Your recipe looks about right to me.  For a Bavarian Weizen you want
50-60% wheat malt.  Depending on your mash/sparge system, your beer may
come out a bit too strong with 10 lbs. of grain.  You might also think
about adding/substituting a little Munich malt for more maltiness and a
touch of color.

Definitely use the Wyeast wheat beer yeast.  It is the key to the clove
aroma.  If you can't get that, try Vierka lager yeast (dry).  When
fermented warm, it also produces a marked clove aroma.

At the end of fermentation, the Bavarians lager their Weizen beers for
at least 3 weeks below 40 degrees.  I have never tried *not* doing this,
so I don't know how important it is.

At last month's meeting of the Brews Brothers, a few of us had a mini
tasting of commercial (German) Weizen beers.  We were all struck by the
wide range of flavors among the various brands.  The Paulaner was
rather sweet and clovey, while the Spaten had a very strong sour/tangy
note to it.  (Of course, who knows how old these beers were and what
atrocities they'd been subjected to?)  I drank a Pinkus last night, and
it seemed somewhere in-between.  Personally, I go for sweet and
clovey.

Good luck!

   John Polstra               polstra!jdp at uunet.uu.net
   Polstra & Co., Inc.           ...!uunet!polstra!jdp
   Seattle, Washington USA              (206) 932-6482
   "Self-knowledge is always bad news."  -- John Barth

- ------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 91 14:31:40 -0700
From: mcnally at Pa.dec.com
Subject: roasted wheat


Has anyone ever tried toasting wheat malt?  I wonder.  Maybe I'll give
it a try next time I do a weizenbock.

- - --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike McNally                                           mcnally at wsl.dec.com
Digital Equipment Corporation
Western Software Lab

- ------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 91 14:39:56 PDT
From: grumpy!cr at uunet.UU.NET (C.R. Saikley)
Subject: 4-vinyl guaiacol


From: Doug Dreger <dreger at seismo.gps.caltech.edu>


>I was wondering I anyone has been successful in making a weisen with
>a medium to strong clove taste?  The local brewpub offers a wheat beer
>that doesn't even have a hint of cloves and several homebrewing friends
>make very good wheat beers that have negligable clove taste.  My HBing
>friends use the wyeast wheat beer yeast.  I don't know what the brewpub uses.

The clove taste in Bavarian wheat beers comes from a compound called
4-vinyl guaiacol. It is produced by Saccharomyces Delbruckii, which is
the yeast strain used for wheat beers in Germany. American wheat beers
typically don't use a Delbruckii strain, and consequently don't have the
clove taste.

Wyeast #3056 is a mixed strain. It has both S. Cerevisiae and S. Delbruckii.
Like your friends, I found it produced no clove character. I'd suggest
trying MeV Lab's wheat beer yeast (#033). A friend used it recently with
very good results. His first batch was a standard weizen and had distinct
clovey tastes with very pronounced banana esters. He later pitched the
dregs from the first batch into a second. The second batch was a dunkel
wiezen. The banana esters were very strong and the clove taste diminished
substantially. I'm a little sketchy on the details of the fermentation,
so I don't know what's attributable to what. At any rate, they were both
good beers, and had more clove than any brew fermented with Wyeast that
I've encountered.

On Sunday I made a wheat beer using MeV #033 myself. Thusfar all I can say
is it's a slow starter. I pitched a 1.5 liter starter into 15 gallons
early Sunday evening, but there was still no activity late Monday night.
Have others out there found it to be a slow starter also???

MeV yeast can be mail ordered from :

                Brewhaus
                4955 Ball Camp Pike
                Knoxville, Tennessee  37921
                (615) 523-4615



- ------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 91 18:16:37 EDT
From: pmh at media-lab.media.mit.edu
Subject: sorry

sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, !
I got my tunes messed up, my sig should be corrected to:
                        ------------------------------------
Paul Hubel                   USQUE AD MORTEM BIBENDUM
                        ------------------------------------
                            "take out the dog doo,
                                 hope it is hard".
                                         -J.Walsh
                        ------------------------------------
        ------------------------------------
                            "if you don't start drinking,
                                 I'm gonna leave".
                                         -G. Thorogood
                        ------------------------------------


- ------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 91 16:41:09 PDT
From: Martin A. Lodahl <pbmoss!malodah at PacBell.COM>
Subject: Additives & Preservatives

In HOMEBREW Digest #660, dbreiden confessed his sins 8-),
then observed:

> ...  Anyhow, I was looking at the label and recalling the stuff I've
> heard about Miller brewing and the treatment of hops.  On the label, the
> words "No additives or preservatives" are boldy displayed.  And of
> course, the ingredients are not listed, they simply say "Contains
> malt, hops, yeast, and water.  Selective listing indeed.  So I was
> thinking, "If they treat the hops, wouldn't that result in an additive?"

The thinking of the Big Brewers seems to be something along the lines
of, "if you put it in and then took it out, it's as if you didn't
put it in".  This thinking is quite common on the cellaring end of
the process, where adsorbants like polyvinylpolypyrrolidone, silica
gel, or Bentonite are added and later filtered out.  My
understanding is that after the chemical treatment of the hops,
what's left is just the iso-alpha acids, so they don't really
need to mention the reagents or intermediate products ...

= Martin A. Lodahl                        Pacific*Bell Staff Analyst =
= malodah at pbmoss.Pacbell.COM       Sacramento, CA       916.972.4821 =
= If it's good for ancient Druids, runnin' nekkid through the wuids, =
= Drinkin' strange fermented fluids, it's good enough for me!  8-)   =


- ------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 91 21:58:13 EDT
From: capnal at aqua.whoi.edu (Al Duester)
Subject: brewpot source in Boston

For those of you in the Boston area still looking for large brewpots,
you might want to check out Chin Enterprises, 33 Harrison Ave. in
Chinatown. (617) 423-1725. I was there and picked up a chinese cleaver
at a good price. I didn't have time to return and check them out, but as
I was leaving I noted a number of huge pots in the window that appeared
to be made out of stainless.   -Al

- ------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 91 23:33:19 -0400
From: Matthias Blumrich <mb at Princeton.EDU>
Subject: Emergency Brewpup info needed!

Hi all.  I'm leaving for San Francisco today and I need to know where
to sample the local brews in some really cool place.  I have a car so
the whole area is fair game.  Please e-mail any info to
mb at cs.princeton.edu.  Thanks!
 - Matt -

- ------------------------------


End of HOMEBREW Digest #662, 06/19/91
*************************************

---