---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Re: Q; Rec. for pot lids? (Chris Shenton)
  Pre-boiling water (Tom Nolan)
  homemade stainless fermenter (Marty Albini)
  re: reCulturing Yeast ("MR. DAVID HABERMAN")
  Re: Homebrew Digest #686 (July (Jueal, Stacey)
  Re: bananas (Kevin L. McBride)
  Re: Sam Adams Wheat Brew. (Kevin L. McBride)
  Re: Dry brew, cold filtered (Kevin L. McBride)
  Re: Frank's Questions (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  micro start $$ ("KATMAN.WNETS385")
  re: Fermenters, bottling from kegs (larryba)
  RE: Juniper Beer (Mike Fertsch)
  2 questions (kevin vang)
  Re: Bottling from kegged beer? (korz)
  Re: Kegging Question (korz)
  info (PJN)
  Filling Bottles from Kegs ("John Cotterill")
  please add me to mailing list (Jim Bergman)
  re: Brewpub/micro startup costs (Darryl Richman)
  Re: Darryl who?? (Darryl Richman)
  Startup Costs (C.R. Saikley)
  Keg/Kettle Lids (Rad Equipment)
  Keg/Kettle Lids                       Time:2:13 PM     Date:7/24/91
  Re: making malt (John Polstra)
  All grain mistakes (ez005142)
  Re: Bottling from kegged beer? (John Polstra)
  brewpub/micro startup costs (sewer!psrc)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Jul 91 10:55:48 EDT
From: Chris Shenton <chris at endgame.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Q; Rec. for pot lids?

You could try a wok lid or a lid from an other large pot you may have.

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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 91 10:48:32 -0400
From: nolan at lheavx.DNET.NASA.GOV (Tom Nolan)
Subject: Pre-boiling water

There were several replies to the guy who's brew-shop-owner advised
him to pre-boil all his water, the replies all having to do with the
low bacterial count in tap water making this step unnecessary. I
think they missed one of the main points - boiling the water and
*letting it cool in open-top containers* drives off chlorine and
other dissolved junk in the water. Miller (the author, not the
dry beer) devotes some space to this concept in TCHoHB. The same
things the water company does to keep bacteria counts low are 
going to work against your yeast, too. By pre-boiling you are likely
to make the water more habitable for your little pals. I think
pre-boiling has some effect on mashing also, by softening the
water (you want to add minerals to compensate). BTW, I
notice that Colonel John always uses preboiled water in his beer
kit reviews in Zymurgy.

Tom

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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 91 8:59:16 PDT
From: Marty Albini <martya at sdd.hp.com>
Subject: homemade stainless fermenter

> From: "John Cotterill" <johnc at hprpcd.rose.hp.com>
> 
> Does anyone know where I can obtain a stainless steel fermenter with a conical
> bottom on it (just like the pros!) that holds about 6 gallons??  I had this
> great idea that if I cut the bottom off of a Cornelius Keg, and welded a 
> stainless funnel on the bottom, I would have just what I need.  The trouble
> was that I could not find a funnel large enough.  A custom funnel costs about
> $250.  Anyhow, you get the idea of what I'm looking for.  Any suggestions where
> to find it??

	Any competent sheet metal shop should be able to make
up a stainless cone for maybe fifty bucks, including the
welding. $250 is outrageous. The hardest part will be finding
the valve or fitting for the bottom.

	Call the manufacturer to get the alloy! You'll want to
match what they used to make the keg, to make welding easier.
I think both Cornelius and Firestone use 303, but if your
fermenter turns into a pressure vessel accidentally and blows
up because this tidbit of data is wrong I will NOT be liable.

	Some observations on welding with kegs:

	In a desperate attempt to get 2.5 gal kegs, a fellow
brewer, whose name I will not divulge (after all, he has a
family, and if word of this got out...) and I tried to make
one. He found a cheap source of 5 gal kegs, and I sawed the
middle out of one and got the top welded to the bottom. Since
you can't weld from the inside, it got welded from the
outside, and this left the inside of the bead pretty ugly.
Lots of rough, jagged surfaces to hold microbes.

	I used up several grinding stones in my die grinder,
and damn near buzzed a Dremel tool to death trying to get the
bead ground smooth. The tools proved near impossible to hold
thru the opening of the keg, and grinding the weld (rather
than the keg) proved difficult. I still have the keg, but 
haven't used it.

	If somebody comes up with a great idea, I'd like to
hear about it.
- --
______________________________________Marty Albini___________
"Out on the Mira the people are kind; they treat you to
homebrew and help you unwind/ and if you come broken they see
that you mend, and I wish I was with them again."--Allister
MacGilivray
phone    : (619) 592-4177
UUCP     : {hplabs|nosc|hpfcla|ucsd}!hp-sdd!martya
Internet : martya at sdd.hp.com 
US mail  : Hewlett-Packard Co., 16399 W. Bernardo Drive, San Diego CA 92127-1899 USA

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Date: 24 Jul 91 09:19:00 PDT
From: "MR. DAVID HABERMAN" <habermand at afal-edwards.af.mil>
Subject: re: reCulturing Yeast

>When I rack  the beer off, I figure on swirling-up and bottling some of the
>yeast-cake itself  and sticking it, unprimed, directly into the fridge. I

That's what I did a few months ago.

>
>That's how I plan to go about it unless someone here can show me that it won't
>work.

It worked fine for me.  I am on the third batch from the original yeast.  The
first batch was from the Wyeast #1056 American Ale yeast.  I then took the
stuff off the bottom of the primary and put it in a 48 oz. juice jar.  A
couple of months later I pitched half of it into the carbouy of the next
batch.  I let it warm up to room temperature first.  The third batch's yeast
came from the bottom of the primary of the second batch after being stored in
the 'fridge for a month.  A starter was used for this batch.  I spoke to Dr.
Fix at the Southern California Homebrewer's Conference and he said that as
long as there is a layer of beer over the yeast it would be OK in the
refrigerator for a while.  Make sure the yeast is a clean white color and the
beer tastes good.  Also, don't forget to sterilize the jar, lid, and the
funnel used to transfer the yeast sludge.  I got a good enough yeast pack on
the second batch and had to add a little sterile water to have some liquid
covering the yeast.

Another hint from Dr. Fix:  if you don't have boiling water to rinse the
carbouy, use a can of cheap beer.  It's sterile and will readily absorb the
chlorine.

 -
David A. Haberman
Email: habermand at afal-edwards.af.mil
Benny's Bait Shop and Sushi Bar - "Today's Bait is Tomorrow's Plate!"


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Date: 24 Jul 91 16:08 GMT
From: JUEAL.S at AppleLink.Apple.COM (Jueal, Stacey)
Subject: Re: Homebrew Digest #686 (July

A Dietz wants to know where to get great glassware.  Well two reccomendations I
can give are the following:
 
1.  If your area has a store called 'Crate & Barrel', you're in luck.  They
have an *INCREDIBLE* selection of glass/barware.  I know this retailer isn't
just a California phenomenon.  They're also resonably priced.  Glassware is
sold by the piece rather than sets.  This gives you the flexibility of
constructing a set sized to your needs, as well as a way to replace broken
glasses without buying a whole set!
 
2.  I live in the San Francisco Bay area.  Any phone book lists restaurant/bar
supplies stores that are open to the public.  They are listed under 'Restaurant
supply' in the yellow pages.  These folks tend to sell glassware in large sets,
like 36 per!  This can work in your favor.  Buy a set and keep out only the
number you need.  Pull from the remainder you pack away as needed.  My brew
partner purchased his wine glasses this way -- we're winos too ;-)  I think he
said the glasses cost about $3.00/per.  Not a bad deal at all.  I would imagine
beer glasses and the like could be had for a reasonable price as well.
 
Bottom line is you *CAN* get nice glassware for a decent price AND not feel
awful when a glass is broken.
 
Hope this helps!!!
 
Stacey, the sweetie of 'Slug & Sweetie'
 

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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 91 12:25:19 EDT
From: gozer!klm at uunet.UU.NET (Kevin L. McBride)
Subject: Re: bananas

Mike McNally <mcnally at Pa.dec.com> writes:
>
>I have begun sampling a batch that, like a couple before it, have a
>distinct banana aroma.  Noonan blames this on ethyl acetate formed due
>to lack of oxygen in the early pre-fermentation phase.  I'll be building
>one of those aerators (from some stiff plastic tubing) real soon now.

I can't verify the chemical that causes the banana flavor/aroma, but
it isn't always an undesirable trait.  It is my understanding that
additional oxygenation of the wort will reduce the effect.

Sam Adams Wheat Beer has a very distinct banana aroma/flavor and I
personally find it to be a wonderful part of the character of this
beer.

- -- 
Kevin L. McBride        | "It's the quintessential "shell script from hell."
President         DoD   | People sometimes gather their friends around and
MSCG, Inc.       #0348  | run it just for the entertainment value."
uunet!wang!gozer!klm    |                       - Larry Wall on "Configure"

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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 91 12:35:30 EDT
From: gozer!klm at uunet.UU.NET (Kevin L. McBride)
Subject: Re: Sam Adams Wheat Brew.

"DRCV06::GRAHAM" <graham%drcv06.decnet at drcvax.af.mil> writes:
>
>I got my first six-pack of the new Wheat Brew from Sam Adams (The Boston
>Beer Co.), this weekend.  Now, I am new to experiencing many different
>types of beer.  Two years ago, I hated beer because all I had ever tasted
>was the usual American barley sodapop.  When I finally discovered beer in
>all it's glories, I missed wheat beer.  This new brew from Sam Adams is the
>first wheat I have ever tasted.  (I intend to brew some, but too many
>stouts to try first!)

The new Sam Adams Wheat Beer is certainly *different* from most of the
other wheat beers that I have had.  I had a chance to taste it at the
brewery during the AHA Conference brewery/pub crawl and immediately
fell in love with it.  This was before it was available in stores.  As
soon as it became available, I went out and bought a whole case.  It's
that good.

>Does anyone know what the wheat percentage is in this beer?  Do they brew
>it on premesis, or is it contract brewed.  Most importantly of all, how
>does it compare with other great wheat beers of Europe.  (I intend to get
>around to trying all of them, too ... it just takes time, a lot of time.)

No, I don't know.  Jim Koch told us during the tour, but I wasn't
taking notes.  It is brewed both in their Boston brewery and by
contract in Pittsburgh.  How does it compare?  Well, it's different,
but it is definitely up there on my list as one of the "great ones."

>Oh yes, how did I like the new Wheat Brew?  Since I haven't heard any other
>opinions yet, I'll go out on a limb and say it is delicious.  There is a
>good solid taste that starts with a lot of flavor and lingers longer than
>any other beer I have tasted.  The far end of the aftertaste is not unlike
>that you get if you chew raw wheat berries.  Now, if the consensus is that
>it's a bad beer, I'm proven to have no taste ... but I think it will hold
>up to be pretty good in all quarters.

I agree.  It IS delicious.  It has a wonderfully complex flavor and
aroma, but at the same time, it is light, dry and crisp.  A definite
replacement for your old lawnmower beer.  I can drink a LOT of this
stuff.  (I HAVE drunk a lot of this stuff. :-)

- -- 
Kevin L. McBride        | "It's the quintessential "shell script from hell."
President         DoD   | People sometimes gather their friends around and
MSCG, Inc.       #0348  | run it just for the entertainment value."
uunet!wang!gozer!klm    |                       - Larry Wall on "Configure"

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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 91 12:45:08 EDT
From: gozer!klm at uunet.UU.NET (Kevin L. McBride)
Subject: Re: Dry brew, cold filtered

Mike Fertsch <FERTSCH at adc1.adc.ray.com> writes:
>
>[stuff about dry brewing and cold filtering]...
>
>Listening to the adverts,...
>

Phil <can'trememberhislastnamerightnow> of the Cambridge Brewing Co.
has this cute little sign on the wall inside his brewery.  It reads
like a David Letterman "Top Ten" list describing beer advertising
gimmicks, etc., ad nauseum.

At the very bottom of the list (No. 1 reason) is:

	"Cold Filtered, because you don't know what that means."

IMHO, "Dry Brewing" and "Cold Filtering" don't mean squat to the Big
Beer Co.'s target audience.  They just sound like revolutionary
techniques designed to deliver a beer with even less flavor than
before.  Pure Marketing Bullshit.  I personally don't want anything to
do with a beer that has "absolutely no aftertaste."  A-B tries to make
it sound like there is no such thing as a "good aftertaste."

Blech.

- -- 
Kevin L. McBride        | "It's the quintessential "shell script from hell."
President         DoD   | People sometimes gather their friends around and
MSCG, Inc.       #0348  | run it just for the entertainment value."
uunet!wang!gozer!klm    |                       - Larry Wall on "Configure"

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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 91 10:53:32 mdt
From: hplabs!hp-lsd.cos.hp.com!ihlpl!korz (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Re: Frank's Questions

>I purchased a "starter kit" from the best-known local supplier (read only
>local supplier) and got everything but a glass carboy (I know...the Digest's
>Beginner file recommends one. I guess I just got so caught up in the excitement
>of it all I forgot).  Anyway, the supplier suggests I forgo secondary fermen-
>tation in the carboy by priming the bottles.  I know I have read opinions
	It's not the secondary fermentor that's what's important here,
	rather, a second, large food-grade container for priming.
	I suggest you get the carboy (give up the deposit from the
	bottled water company and keep the carboy) and use the plastic
	bucket you got with the kit for mixing-in the priming sugar.
	In any event, be very careful to not scratch the plastic
	bucket -- scratches harbor bacteria.
>regarding this here before, but forget what the concensus was.  Should I 
>take the slightly more complicated route and procure a carboy first, or
>is simplicity worth the cost in flavor for the first batch?
	It's not the flavor -- you may get inconsistent carbonation
	and you should boil your priming sugar to kill any nasties.
>I have a hopped
>malt extract (IRONMASTER Brown Ale) to keep it simple, but should I also
>add some finishing hops or is that getting a bit too esoteric for a first
>batch?
	Go for it.
>Another concern is that I live in the desert.  The days are about
>105 degrees right now and keeping the house at 65 degrees for aging the 
>bottled brew would raise the per bottle cost beyond reason.  Is 78 - 80 degrees
>OK or will it ruin the quality of the beer?
	It will taste fruitier -- it will not ruin the beer.
>
>Thanks in advance for any help.  This Digest has been the single greatest
>inducement for my interest in homebrewing...thanks to all involved!
	Your welcome.  You can pay us back by turning two (or more) of your
	friends on to homebrewing.  Once everyone in the U.S. appreciates
	good beer, we'll be able to buy good beer everywhere!
Al.


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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 91 16:29 GMT
From: "KATMAN.WNETS385" <6790753%356_WEST_58TH_5TH_FL%NEW_YORK_NY%WNET_6790753 at mcimail.com>
Subject: micro start $$



     Date: 24-Jul-91      Time: 12:30 PM       Msg: EXT01603

Wolfgang Puck said it took him $1 million to get Eureka off the ground. He
hadn't realized it would be so much more expensive to do a brewery vs. a
regular restaurant. The guys at New Haven Brewing Co. spent $100,000 just on
legal fees to get the Connecticut laws changed, and they are spending a great
deal of money on licenses, permits, etc. The equipment alone must be
terrifically expensive. As I understand it, it's all made by this place in
Oregon. There is also a magazine/trade paper for micros you could subscribe to.
Call micros and ask them what it cost them, running costs, etc. Also you have
to factor in the physical plant. Height is important.

Lee Katman == Thirteen/WNET == New York, NY

=Do not= use REPLY or ANSWERBACK, I can not receive mail in that fashion.
Please send all mail to
INTERNET katman.wnets385%wnet_6790753 at mcimail.com
OR
MCIMAIL EMS: wnet 6790753  MBX: katman.wnets385



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Date: Wed Jul 24 10:04:58 1991
From: larryba at microsoft.com
Subject: re: Fermenters, bottling from kegs

|>From: Tom Bower <bower at hprnlme1.rose.hp.com>
|
|So, what's the best way to bottle some when you're also kegging?

I simply bleed off the pressure and fill bottles from my tap.  My beers are
in a refer  at 48f + I freeze the bottles before filling.  They seem to keep
their carbonation just fine.  Before I had a refer for my beer, I would drop
the kegs into my chest freezer for a couple of hours.

|>From: "John Cotterill" <johnc at hprpcd.rose.hp.com>
|
|Does anyone know where I can obtain a stainless steel fermenter with a
|conical bottom on it (just like the pros!) that holds about 6 gallons??

I had a similar "great idea", but quickly dropped it when the fabrication
costs started running $500 or more!  New kegs run about $90 and they are mass
produced.  I might be willing to part with $200 to get an equivilent conical
fermenter for 6-7 gallons that has the same form factor as a keg. Then I can
get a fermenter + several kegs into my refer.  As it is now I can only stuff
one carboy + 3 kegs into it.  To ferment/lager/store more beer would require
a second fridge + a remodel of the house.  Hence my willingness to blow money
on a fermenter. I doubt even the massive homebrew market wouldn't allow the
kind of efficiencies needed to get down to $200. :=(


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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 91 13:00 EDT
From: Mike Fertsch <FERTSCH at adc1.adc.ray.com>
Subject: RE: Juniper Beer

Kevin McBride posted a question the other day about juniper berries in 
beer:

> Well, the Junipers are all covered with berries.  Blowing off the cobwebs
> from the back of my brain brings forth a memory of someone writing about
> Juniper beer many digests ago. Is it worth trying?  Just for a lark?  Yes,
> I like gin, so I wouldn't find the Juniper taste to be offensive. How much
> of the berry harvest should I use for a 5 gallon batch? Do they go into the
> boil?  Or is it better to "dry hop" the berries?  Should they be crushed
> first? Would Juniper go better with a "lawnmower" beer or with something
> heavier? 

I have no experiences either, but I am going through the same questions as
Kevin.  My wife bought some "freezed dried" juniper berries for cooking.
They smell wonderful - just like good gin.  I recall reading that the
Belgians used juniper berries in beer before the world discovered hops. 
Michael Jackson says that one or two Belgian breweries STILL make juniper
beer.  Some info must be available!  Any Belgianophiles out there? 

I was planning on making a strong spiced beer (Belgian triple strength =
1.080)  I plan on using coriander and orange peel at the end of the boil,
hoping for a Hoegarden Gran Cru-type beer.  As an experiment, I'll add some
crushed juniper berries to the secondary fermenter (split batch).  I'll go
pretty light on the berries as each berry has tremendous flavor and aroma.
1 tablespoon of the crushed berries will be my starting point.  My limited
experience tells me that spices should not be boiled for long periods of
time.  I'm brewing this weekend, and I'll let everyone know how it turns
out!  I hope it works, because I just "discovered" a big juniper tree in my
yard! 

mike f

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Date:         Wed, 24 Jul 91 11:07:04 CDT
From: kevin vang <MN033302 at VM1.NoDak.EDU>
Subject:      2 questions

1. I made a batch a few weeks ago using yeast cultured from a Chimay bottle.
This weekend I dumped it out into the flower bed.  It had an extremely sour
taste; not a pleasant, fruity or lambic-like sourness, but a nasty, somebody-
puked-in-the-primary sourness.  It smelled great, strangely enough.  I assume
this is the work of some sort of bacterial infection, right?  Anybody had any
thing like this happen?  I've been brewing for 8 yrs now (my, how time flies..)
and I've had some batches go bad, but this is the first that was so bad that I
couldn't stand to have even a drop in my mouth for one second...

2.  Having sterilized my equipment extra thoroughly, I was making a new batch
Sunday.  Just before the wort came to a boil, a thick layer of ugly scum float-
ed to the surface, as usual.  I was about to skim it off like I usually do,
when I asked myself, "Are these the degraded protein molecules so necessary for
body and head retention?  Is this the reason I've always had problems with head
retention?"  So, in the name of science, I stirred the scum back into the wort.
I'll report on the results later on if anybody's interested.  Anybody know for
sure (or have a blowhard opinion) if the scum should be removed or left in?

Kevin Vang (mn033302 at ndsuvm1)
Minot State University Minot NND

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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 91 10:56 CDT
From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
Subject: Re: Bottling from kegged beer?

Tom Bower asks about bottling and kegging from the same batch:
>   2.) Bottle some of the already-carbonated beer straight out of the keg.
>       Are there any tricks/gotchas with this?  Does naturally-carbonated
>       work as well as CO2-tank-carbonated for bottling?

I haven't tried bottling already-kegged beer, but I can confidently say
that bottling carbonated beer (or any carbonated liquid for that matter)
requires a counter-pressure filler.  The way this works is that, first,
you equalized the pressures in the bottle and the keg and then, transfer
the beer into the bottle.  If you don't equalize the pressures, a lot of
the CO2 you have in the beer will come out of solution andy you'll get
less-carbonated beer out of the bottles.  Foxx Equipment Co., KC, MO,
1-800-821-2254, makes an apparatus, which I have not yet bought, but
I have had excellent service from Foxx.  Ask for the "Homebrew Expert"
when you call -- the other salespeople may not be familiar with the
homebrew equipment.
Al.
korz at ihlpl.att.com

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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 91 11:31 CDT
From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
Subject: Re: Kegging Question

Warren Kiefer asks:
>	I now have obtained a root beer keg from the local pepsi distributor,
>what I'm wondering is what I'll have to do to get this baby in action ??  

You will need to replace all the rubber gaskets/seals on the tank if you
don't want your beer to taste like root beer.  New seals are also a good
idea to minimize leaks.  No, your hardware store will probably not have
the connectors you need -- I suggest Foxx Equipment Co. (see above).
I also suggest metal connectors (they are significantly sturdier than the
plastic ones).  If you get the "Homebrew Kegging Kit" you will, by default,
get plastic connectors.  If you can, substitute metal ones -- you'll pay
an extra buck or two, but you won't regret it.  The only in-line faucet
(one that does not mount onto anything -- just sits on the end of a hose)
they used to have at Foxx was plastic.  Unless they've gotten something
new, you won't be able to trade up to metal at this point in the setup,
however, I have not had any problems with any of the faucets I got from 
them.  I also recommend a two-gauge regulator (one tells you the pressure
going into the keg, the other, the pressure in the tank).  With a two-gauge,
you will have less chance of running out of CO2 unexpectedly.  Finally,
(I'm sure that the person at Foxx will ask you, but just in case) what
you've got is a "pin-lock" keg (as opposed to "ball-lock").
Al.

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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 91 13:07:07 EDT
From: PJN%FDACFSAN.BITNET at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: info

please enter my name to receive homebrew digest. many thanks.
patsy nyman
send to; PJN at FDACFSAN

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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 91 11:09:59 PDT
From: "John Cotterill" <johnc at hprpcd.rose.hp.com>
Subject: Filling Bottles from Kegs
Full-Name: "John Cotterill"


> Tom Bower asks how to fill bottles from kegs...
<<I tried to E-mail this to you Tom but it got bounced back>>

Tom,

I know just what you need!  Its called a counter pressure bottle filler.  It 
allows you to fill the bottle with carbonated beer straight from the keg.
Basically, you hook the unit up to the keg, connect your CO2 up to both the keg
and the filler.  The beer line from the keg also connects to the filler.  
You put the filler into your bottle which forms a tight seal
on the bottle.  Then, flip a valve on the filler, and pressurize the bottle
to the same pressure as the keg.  Close the valve and open the beer valve
from the keg.  Guess what?  Nothing happens!  Remember, the keg and bottle
are at the same pressure.  Now, bleed off some of the pressure from the bottle,
using another valve.  The beer slowly flows from the keg to the bottle at 
the keg pressure.  No fuss, no muss.  I got mine from DeFalco's in Houston
(713-523-8154) for about $50.00.  The thing is entirely stainless steel,
and is a good value.  If you want to see mine, call me and I'll bring it in.
- --
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~       John Cotterill  (916) 785-4138          ~
~       Systems Technology Division             ~
~       8010 Foothills Blvd.                    ~
~       Roseville, CA 95678                     ~
~       HPDesk: John (hprpcd) /HP5200/UX        ~
~       Unix to Unix: johnc at hprpcd.rose.hp      ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 91 11:29:48 -0700
From: jimb at mips.com (Jim Bergman)
Subject: please add me to mailing list


Please add me to your mail list.

Jim Bergman (jimb at mips.com)

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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 91 06:34:54 -0700
From: darryl at ism.isc.com (Darryl Richman)
Subject: re: Brewpub/micro startup costs

On the far ends of the spectrum:  I think the guys at Lakefront spent a
few $K putting theirs together.  But they did all their own work.  On
the other hand, Los Angeles Brewing (Wolfgang Puck's operation) spent
about $4M building a brewery that has the potential to grow larger than
Anchor.  Frankly, I enjoy Lakefront's product quite a bit more;  I got
to taste it again at the Oregon Brewer's Festival.  It's too bad that
Puck apparently has no taste for beer (I'll not comment on the food he
creates ;-).  Although LA Brewing makes a high quality beer, it is
only one notch up from Michelob in interest level.  If you're in the LA
area and want a good microbrewed lager, drink Alpine Village instead
(I think their micro was about $500K).

		--Darryl "Who, me?" Richman


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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 91 06:40:06 -0700
From: darryl at ism.isc.com (Darryl Richman)
Subject: Re: Darryl who??

Carl, I already *paid* you this month.  And I *will* get you the next
payment on time!

		--Darryl Richman

P.S.  We only have three dogs and no snakes.


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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 91 13:07:57 PDT
From: grumpy!cr at uunet.UU.NET (C.R. Saikley)
Subject: Startup Costs


From: R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas)

>  Still no response on my question of how much it costs to start up a brewpub
>or microbrewery.  Anybody know?

OK, here's one data point........ 

A friend has a brewery in the SF Bay Area. It's a microbrewery and not a
brewpub. His mash tun & brewkettle are designed for 14 barrel batches.
He told me that he spent about $220K getting started. I believe that he
is leasing the building (not sure about that). 

And here's some fuzzier data......

After a recent competition, I was having lunch with a couple of brewers.
One of them claimed that his backers had lots of $$ & spent $180K on
the brewery alone, not counting the cost of the kitchen, property, pub
etc., etc. The other brewer pointed out that things could be done much
cheaper, and that his brewery was built for a mere $85K (again, not
including kitchen, etc.).

The Sudwerks brewery in Davis, CA is a very big, beautiful and lavish
brewpub. I've heard various people state that it cost anywhere from
$2M - $5M to build. The figure quoted seems to be proportional to the
number of beers that the person doing the quoting has had!!!

Real estate costs are a big consideration. Obviously it will cost alot 
more to build a brewpub in Manhattan than in Coeur D'Alene. The costs
will also vary alot depending on the equipment. Brand new stainless 
(not aluminum!) tanks from a turn-key supplier like JV Northwest or 
Western Brewing Systems run into five figures each. On the other hand, 
the Indianapolis Brewing Company purchased used 64 barrel stainless 
dairy tanks for only $3500 each. Your mileage will vary.

So Russ, should we keep our eyes open for the Gelinas Brewing Company???

BTW, could someone mail me a copy of HBD #685, it seems to have gone
the way of #646 and I'd hate to miss a single blow in the exciting 
Al vs SS debate.


Thanks,
CR

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Date: 24 Jul 91 14:17:13
From: Rad Equipment <Rad_Equipment at rad-mac1.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Keg/Kettle Lids

Subject:  Keg/Kettle Lids                       Time:2:13 PM     Date:7/24/91
Find a restaurant supply place and they should be able to provide 11" or so 
aluminum lids for about $10 a piece.  These will work fine if you cut a hole in
the top of the keg and retain the handles.  If you cut the whole top of the keg
off you'll need about a 16" lid.  Buy a lid prior to cutting the keg to be sure
you cut the right size hole.  Rapids' prices for the aluminum lids are as good
as any I have found locally.

RW...

       Russ Wigglesworth              CI$:      72300,61
 |~~|  UCSF Medical Center            Internet: Rad Equipment at RadMac1.ucsf.edu
 |HB|\ Dept. of Radiology, Rm. C-324  Voice:    415-476-3668 / 474-8126 (H)
 |__|/ San Francisco, CA 94143-0628


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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 91 15:38:09 PDT
From: polstra!jdp at uunet.UU.NET (John Polstra)
Subject: Re: making malt

It is possible to malt your own grains at home.  See the article "Home
Malting for Homebrewers" by R. C. Dale.  It was in the famous 1985 "all
grain" special issue of Zymurgy (volume 8 number 4).  Some homebrew
supply shops carry it, or you can order it from the AHA for $8.50.
(Whether you care about home malting or not, this is probably *the* most
useful issue of Zymurgy ever.)

   John Polstra               polstra!jdp at uunet.uu.net
   Polstra & Co., Inc.           ...!uunet!polstra!jdp
   Seattle, Washington USA              (206) 932-6482
   "Self-knowledge is always bad news."  -- John Barth

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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 91 15:46:06 -0700
From: ez005142 at pollux.ucdavis.edu
Subject: All grain mistakes


Howdy,

I have a couple procedural questions about all-grain brewing as my
first all grain beer was a partial failure.  I followed all the instructions
in Miller except that I didn't do any pH testing, and had difficultly
removing all the bicarbonate from my water.  The yeild from the mash
was supposed to be around 40-45, but t ended up at only 25. (I added
dry malt extract to raise the OG sufficiently and the beer turned out)
So without going into all the details of my mash and sparge, can anyone
answer these questions:

1:  Does pH make all that big of a difference as Miller seems to think?
     Would pH have enough of an effect that it could reduce my yield to
      50% of what it should be?.

2:  How would one eliminate 500-700 ppm of bicarbonate in my brew water?
    (Yep, believe it or not, that's how much I've got!)
    I used a fair amount of gypsum in combination with a 15 minute boil,
    but I was ucertain of the amount of gypsum necessary to remove the
    bicarbonate., and was concered about other affects.  Is there a
    simple formula or something?

3:  What is the best way to manipulate pH, assuming it does make a
    diffrence?

4:  If pH is important, but I can't adjust it, can one compensate for
    an improper pH by increasing the rest times?

Thanks in advance for any advice on my problem.  My next beer will
hopefully be a true all-grain effort.  Adios.

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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 91 16:08:49 PDT
From: polstra!jdp at uunet.UU.NET (John Polstra)
Subject: Re: Bottling from kegged beer?

In HBD #686, Tom Bower <bower at hprnlme1.rose.hp.com> asked:
> So, what's the best way to bottle some when you're also kegging?

It is possible to bottle beer from a keg without any special equipment,
and with excellent results.  I didn't invent this method, but I'm happy
to pass along the following tips:

    1.  Go ahead and carbonate the beer in the keg, using whatever
	technique you choose.

    2.  The kegged beer must be in the refrigerator and cold.  It must
	have been stable at around 15 PSI for an extended period of time
	(weeks, ideally).  In other words, the beer should be
	well-conditioned and not still absorbing CO2.

    3.  This works best if the bottles are also cold.

    4.  Lay out a towel on the floor, because you are going to spill a
	little bit of beer.

    5.  Use a sanitized length of siphon hose an inch or two longer
	than the height of the bottles as the filling hose.  Standard
	siphon hose (3/8") will fit snugly over the spigot of a Cobra tap.

    6.  Crank your CO2 pressure regulator all the way down to 0 PSI.
	Use the pressure relief valve on the keg to vent out all of the
	pressure.  Now slowly increase the setting of your regulator
	until you get a pressure of about 2-3 PSI.  This should be just
	enough pressure to move the beer gently out of the keg when you
	open the tap.

    7.  Stick the length of siphon hose (attached to the Cobra tap)
	into the bottle all the way to the bottom.  Open the tap all the
	way.  The bottle will fill with beer.  There will be some
	foaming, but surprisingly little.

    8.  Keep the tap all the way open until the bottle is completely
	full.  Even let it overflow just a little.  Don't try starting
	and stopping the flow or regulating it by partially closing the
	tap.  That will only cause foaming to occur.  If the flow is too
	fast, try reducing the CO2 pressure.  If foaming occurs
	*inside* the filling hose, your flow rate is too slow; increase
	the CO2 pressure slightly.

    9.  After the bottle has filled to overflowing, close the tap and
	gently pull the hose out of the bottle.  Hold the hose at an
	angle so it will drain into the bottle.  This will end up
	leaving just the right amount of head space in the bottle.

    10. Set a cap loosely on the mouth of the bottle, set the bottle to
	one side, and fill the remaining bottles.  The agitation from
	bottling the beer will cause some CO2 to be released, forcing
	much of the air out of the head space.

    11. When you are done filling, crimp the caps with your capper.

    12. Crank the keg pressure back up to your desired level.

   John Polstra               polstra!jdp at uunet.uu.net
   Polstra & Co., Inc.           ...!uunet!polstra!jdp
   Seattle, Washington USA              (206) 932-6482
   "Self-knowledge is always bad news."  -- John Barth

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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 91 15:04:00 EDT
From: jupiter!sewer!psrc at abars.att.com
Subject: brewpub/micro startup costs

>   Still no response on my question of how much it costs to start up a
> brewpub or microbrewery.  Anybody know?

William Mares' MAKING BEER has a whole chapter ("A Savage Commitment")
on this.  Estimates ranged from $100,000 (if you're willing to do a
*lot* of work building your equipment from scrap or from scratch) to
$200,000-$250,000.  Michael Lewis, who teaches fermentation science at
UC-Davis, said, "You can't plan to work sixty hours a week and take
Sunday off."  (You have to work harder than that.)  There weren't any
figures on brewpubs; the brewing end should be cheaper than for a
microbrewery, but you've still got to build the kitchen, and the
restaurant, and the clientel.

The most common de-mystifying points were that you have to run a
business that just happens to sell beer instead of laundry detergent,
and that getting beer into bottles (or even kegs) is only half the
battle if you want your product distributed and sold.  You'll spend a
lot more time balancing books and marketing your beer than you will
sparging and siphoning.

William Newman (who started the first Ringwood "brewery kit"-based
brewery in the U.S.) has taught a two day course on this.  I have no
idea where or when it's offered, if he still teaches it.

Paul S. R. Chisholm, AT&T Bell Laboratories, paul.s.r.chisholm at att.com
att!epic!jupiter!psrc, psrc%jupiter at epic.att.com, AT&T Mail !psrchisholm

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #687, 07/25/91
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