HOMEBREW Digest #764 Wed 20 November 1991

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		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator

  A couple questions and an answer (Arthur Delano)
  Science Indeed! (Mike Zulauf)
  Portland Beer & etc (Jeff Frane)
  tastes of proto-homebrewers (Chip Hitchcock)
  Dark of the Moon Cream Stout (sbsgrad)
  Green glass / Counterflow chillers (Darren Evans-Young)
  Re: Help with using liquid yeast.
  I've Cut the Keg! (KARL DESCH)
  STUFF (Jack Schmidling)
  More keg fermenting questions (GC Woods)
  Catamount xmas ale (Russ Gelinas)
  Old ingredients ("RICHARD HAPANOWICZ")
  Beer and Pickles (wbt)
  rust in fermenter (Loren Carter)
  Serendipitious Sanitization Experiment (larryba)
  Cardboard,Bay Area Brewoff Competition (Bob Jones)
  Glass & Cardboard ("Rad Equipment")
  Glass & Cardboard                     Time:8:42 AM     Date:11/19/91
  Raspberry Stout ("Rad Equipment")
  Raspberry Stout                       Time:10:58 AM    Date:11/19/91
  PASTEURIZATION (brian_dykman)
  Question on Traditional Recipts (Jay Hersh)
  Kettle Flames (Bob Jones)
  Antipathy to Coors (Ron Rader)
  STUFF (Jack Schmidling)
  oops (brian_dykman)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 18 Nov 91 15:54:12 EST From: Arthur Delano <ajd at itl.itd.umich.edu> Subject: A couple questions and an answer Is there a simple mathematical formula which helps in converting whole-grain recipes to extract? Can I have a copy? (I'd rather brew whole grain, but I can't afford to buy any more brewing equipment and still have money for ingredients (:->)). I've got some clear plastic siphon hoses -- the standard 3/8" diameter -- and a couple of them have clouded up. I've found that their soaking in bleach (in roughly the strength Papazian recommends) clouds them. Are they still good for siphoning? I've switched to new, clear hoses for siphoning, but still use the cloudy ones as blow-off tubes. Is this wise? A brief soaking (under 15 minutes) will not cloud the tubes, but I don't feel that they're sanitized sufficiently that way. Frank Tutzauer <COMFRANK at ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu> asks about how to duplicate the color of Anchor Steam Beer. This summer we used Papazian's second American Steam recipe in the chart on pp. 146-147 (older edition). It came out very well, probably a bit darker than Anchor, but that's just a guess, as we did not compare them side-by-side. AjD ajd at itl.itd.umich.edu Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 91 15:46:05 EST From: proexam!ken at columbia.edu (Kenneth Munno) I'm an extract brewer and have had some experience using the Wyeast liquid cultures. I wanted to culture the dregs from a Chimay bottle but it doesn't look like I've had any luck. It's been about 4 days with no activity. I used a Grand Reserve bottle dated 10/90. Was this bottle too old to culture? I had boiled about 3/4 cup DME with about 3-4 cups of water for 1/2 hour and poured it into a wine jug fitted with an airlock. I then cooled the jug to room temperature, flamed the lip of the beer bottle, and poured the dregs into the jug. Was there too much volume of wort in the jug? Should I have started the dregs in a smaller volume of wort and then after some activity, pitch that into a quart or so of wort? What's the recommended procedure? Would anyone have an extract-based recipe for a Trappist Ale? How many lbs. of extract should be used? etc. proexam!ken at cucrd0.med.columbia.edu (VIA Internet) ...!cmcl2!cucrd0!proexam!ken (UUCP) Kenneth Munno Professional Examination Service (212) 870-2154 Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 91 14:55:59 -0700 From: Mike Zulauf <zulauf at orbit.Colorado.EDU> Subject: Science Indeed! My sister found this somewhere in her medical studies. She gave it to me, and as I found it somewhat enlightening, I decided to pass it on to the digest. Solution of The Secret of Alcoholic Fermentation "Beer yeast, when dispersed in water, breaks down into an infinite number of small spheres. If these spheres are transferred to an aqueous solution of sugar they develop into small animals. They are endowed with a sort of suction trunk with which they gulp up the sugar from the solution. Digestion is immediately and clearly recognizable because of the discharge of excretements. These animals evacuate ethyl alcohol from their bowels and carbon dioxide from their urinary organs. Thus one can observe how a specifically lighter fluid is exuded from the anus and rises vertically whereas a stream of carbon dioxide is ejected at very short intervals from their enormously large genitals." By Friedrich Woehler and Justus von Liebig. Published in the Annals of Chemistry, Volume 29, 1839. Return to table of contents
Date: 18 Nov 91 17:46:13 EST From: Jeff Frane <70670.2067 at compuserve.com> Subject: Portland Beer & etc See what happens? You go away for a few days to get married and come back to a mailbox stuffed with Homebrew Digests. Pretty nice. (And thanks to Martin Lodahl for sending me #760, which got stuck in the CompuServe craw.) With luck this will actually show up in the Digest; previous messages have been long-delayed or disappeared altogether. Comments on 762: Russ Gelinas suggests fermenting in a brewpot, and why not? When I first met Dave Logsdon he had developed a terrific system using a converted commercial coffee maker. He found it, unused, in a military storage sale or some such. The unit was originally fitted with two urns, which were removed and replaced with a single tub. The whole thing had to be plumbed properly so that it could be controlled with steam and/or cold water. Dave mashed in it, sparged out to another container, then back into the unit for boiling. Cold water was pumped through the jacket to cool the wort and a thermostat controlled fermentation so that everything could be done right in the coffee maker. Worked great. Your problem is not doubt different and I would consider the drawback to be getting a good fit on the lid while allowing release of CO2. To me it would make more sense to pick up a used Cornelius keg and fit it with a fermentation lock. Or maybe two old kegs each half-filled. Frank Tutzauer, the homesick Cajun: Yeah, and peripherally, it's interesting to note that chile peppers (and the widely-used peanut) are indigenous to the Western Hemisphere. They sure caught on in southeast Asia, though. Steve Kirkish: Beers are pasteurized to kill any potential trouble-causing microorganisms. Yes, it's generally conceded that pasteurization has a strong affect on the beer's flavor--negative affect, of course. My understanding is that most kegged beers are not pasteurized, since the distributor has more control over their climate (they are kept cold from the time they leave the brewery until you drink 'em), but bottled beers are pasteurized with long, slow heat. When I toured the Anchor Brewery about six years ago, they said they used a "flash-pasteurization" process, with very high heat used very quickly. They claimed taste tests had proven no negative effects on the beer. Coors uses some form of micro-pore filtration designed to filter out little animacules; virtually all microbreweries use some form of filtration which is nowhere near as fine. Any form of filtration is going to strip other desirable characteristics from beer along with the yeast. On where to drink in Portland: I sent Chris this information by e-mail, but thought some more information might be welcome. BridgePort Brewery, 1313 NW Marshall, my favorite place to drink really fine ales, including several served as cask-conditioned; very jolly place, big with lots of tables and standing room. Gets VERY crowded in the evenings. (Don't think it's open on Mondays). Excellent pizza. Portland Brewery, 1339 NW Flanders, longish walking distance from BridgePort. Very good ales, including the cleanest versions of Grant's Scottish Ale and Grant's Imperial Stout. Tiny. (Just next door is Bogart's, which has a large selection of beers) Produce Row, 204 SE Oak, huge selection of bottled and draught beers, fun place, great (in two senses) sandwiches. B. Moloch, 901 SW Salmon, site of the "other" Widmer Brewery and the Heathman Bakery & Pub, which makes excellent bread and pizzas (of the designer variety--the lamb sausage, feta and spinach is truly mind-blowing). Goodish selection of fresh local brew. VERY CROWDED just after work, as it is downtown and a major trendy spot. Don't let the trendiness scare you off. Dublin Pub, 6821 SW Beaverton-Hillsdale Hwy. Not really in Portland, but nearby and they do have more than 100 beers on draught. Pricey and the beers aren't always at their freshest. But still . . . There are brewpubs/taverns all over the place owned by the McMenamin Brothers. I'm not a big fan of their beer, but . . . Among the best is Blue Moon, 432 NW 21st, which is a hip neighborhood (try Casa U Betcha, just down the street, or Delphina's (Italian)). Or you could try the Baghdad, 34th & SE Hawthorne, wherein you can drink beer and watch recent movies . . . for a buck. That oughta do ya. The big Widmer Brewery has tours on Saturday afternoons, from noon-2 pm. Give them a call (281-BIER) for details. They also do tours at Blitz-Weinhard, a lovely old regional brewery, although I believe some of the tourguides are remarkably iggerant. If you're mobile while here, you should travel up the Columbia Gorge to Hood River and visit the brewery and White Cap Pub (Full Sail ales). Or go farther the other way, to the coast, and visit the BayFront Brewpub in Newport (fantastic ales) or even the McMenamin brewpub in Lincoln City. At any rate, have fun! Also might check out the Burlingame Grocery, which has the largest selection of bottled beers in town. Basically, if it's available in Oregon they'll have it. For better prices on more standard beers (Oregon micros, that is) the North Hollywood Fred Meyer and the Jantzen Beach Safeway have excellent selections and lower prices. Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 91 13:12:54 EST From: cjh at vallance.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: tastes of proto-homebrewers Jack raises one issue which I haven't seen addressed yet: > My target was and still is all those people out there that do not even know > that one can make drinkable beer at home. Let's face it, most of them like > Bud. How can the subtleties discussed in these fora possibly be of interest > to those people? I think you don't understand how hard it is to make something that close to flavorless, consistently over many batches, starting with natural products (yeast, whole grains)---and they do this in many different parts of the country (try comparing St. Louis with Nashua NH, ~40 miles NNW of Boston)! Leaving aside the opinion of this digest about the results, the manufacturing process is outstanding; if US automobile makers were anywhere near so consistent they would have no worries about competition from imports. Telling BudMiLob fans they can easily brew something they like is like telling someone in front of a 100-piece orchestra equipped randomly with parts from all the Mahler symphonies that he can make minimalist music with just a few gestures. Taking your economic viewpoint, I would expect the results to be a short burst of sales followed by such rotten word of mouth that the seller would go out of business. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 91 00:35:04 GMT From: sbsgrad%sdph.span at Sdsc.Edu Subject: Dark of the Moon Cream Stout From: Steve Slade <sslade at ucsd.edu> Date sent: 18-NOV-1991 14:58:22 PT My fiancee and I brewed this stout five weeks ago. I waited until now to post the recipe so we could let several people taste the final product, and all like it and want more. We got this recipe from the Great Fermentations 1991 brewing supplies catalog. For five gallons: 5 lbs dry dark malt extract 1.5 lbs crystal malt 20L 2 lbs crystal malt 40L 12 oz chocolate malt 4 oz roasted barley 6 oz dextrin powder 1/2 tsp calcium carbonate First bittering hops: 1/2 oz eroica (20 BU) 1/4 oz chinook (12 BU) Second bittering hops: 3/4 oz Nugget (12 BU) (subst. N. Brewer (? BU)) Aromatic hops: 1 oz cascade (5 BU) 1 oz eroica (4 BU) Wyeast #1098 British Ale yeast 1 cup DME for priming SG = 1.053 FG = 1.020 The catalog describes this as having "overtones of caramel, with a touch of creaminess which adds richness to the character." Brewing details and last minute changes: Made a yeast starter 3 days before pitching. Used 2 tbls DME and 1 cup water. Next time use 2 cups water. All grains were cracked and steeped for 30 minutes at about 160 F along with the calcium carbonate. The steeping water was added to about 2.5 gallons pre-boiled water and the grains were crudely sparged over the boiling kettle using a collander, which brought the total boil to about 5 gallons. Dry malt and dextrin were added and brought to a boil. First bittering hops were added when the boil began. Second bittering hops added after 30 minutes, and boiled for another 30 minutes. Chilled with an immersion chiller (this took about 20 minutes to cool about 4 gallons of wort). BTW an immersion chiller must be stirred often to achieve efficient cooling. Racked to a carboy, filled to 5 gallons and let sit overnight to allow the trub to settle out. (Most had settled after 4 hours or so). The next morning I racked it to a plastic primary, pitched the yeast starter, and added the dry hops. And now for the changes. I had originally planned for a single stage fermentation, with bottling a week after pitching. However, there was no time to bottle after a week, so I racked to a secondary glass carboy to get the beer out of the primary, which does not seal very well. The dry hopping should have been done in the secondary, but at the time I had no plans for using one. I suspect the hops did not spend much time in contact with the beer in the primary, as they got pushed up by the krausen and stuck to the walls. When I bottled 2 weeks after brewing, I tried what might be called "wet hopping." On the suggestion of sometime brew partner Mike Fetzer, I made a hop tea by steeping 1 oz N. Brewer in 2 cups water after the water had just stopped boiling. This was kept covered for about 10 minutes. I bollted half the batch, then added the hop tea and bottled the second half. The bottles aged in my closed for two weeks before tasting. This turned out to be a very nice dry stout. It is dark and thick, with a brown head that lasts to the end and sticks to the side of the glass. The "no tea" beer is not terribly aromatic, and has a noticable bitter aftertase. The "hop tea" beer is more aromatic, and has a smoother finish, with what I think is a better blend of flavors. My fiancee likes the "hop tea" beer better as well, but a friend who only likes dark beers likes the "no tea" beer better. Perhaps this would be a good way to introduce friends to darker beers, while preserving half the batch for the true stout lovers. I should add that Mike tried this same hop tea idea with an IPA and a sweet stout. You could barely taste the difference with the IPA, and not at all with the sweet stout. I think you have to use high alpha acid hops in the tea to make a taste difference. Anyway, thought I would add this recipe for those who compile them, as it did turn out quite well and we plan on brewing it again. Anyone else out there ever experiment with using a hop tea at bottling time? Steve Slade (sslade at ucsd.edu) Center for Magnetic Recording Research U. C. San Diego "What a terrible thing to have lost one's mind. Or not to have a mind at all." - Dan Quayle speaking to the United Negro Collage Fund. Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 91 18:54:58 CST From: Darren Evans-Young <DARREN at UA1VM.UA.EDU> Subject: Green glass / Counterflow chillers RE: Green glass Here is an excerpt from an article titled The Beer Enthusiast by Fred Eckhardt from All About Beer magazine (June/July 1990): Right from the start, Brewmaster Fred was determined to clear up some of this Fred's foggy ideas about beer and green glass and skunky flavor esters. It seems that light damage has more to do with how the glass is made than with its color. If the glass maker adds chromium oxide to the process to defend against light of less than 520 angstrom wavelength, then the possibility of light damage is severely restricted. To prove his point, we tasted some of his green bottled Pils. We started with a six month old sample that had not only been exposed to daylight all that time, but had been on an automatic shaker as well. The brewery had been doing experiments to determine the shelf-life expectancy of it's products. We compared the 6-month old shaken light exposed green bottled sample to that of a current bottling. There was no skunky flavor in either. The beer was clean, but there were differences between them, especially the color: the shaken sample was slightly darker than the fresh sample. "But wait," Fred said, "there's more." He opened another 6-month old sample which had been stored carefully in its light protected case. This beer tasted very similar to the other two. Finally, he offered me a fourth bottle, an eight month old CLEAR GLASS bottled Pils, in a Miller's bottle which had also been left in room light (including flourescent light) and it, too, showed very little difference in flavor. I wouldn't call such old beer great, but it certainly didn't show the damage I have detected in so many store worn bottles I have spent so much money on. I asked Fred if it was common practice for brewer's bottles to be thus protected. "That's the problem," he said, "I have to check on the bottle manufacturer all the time." Most bottle makers make no such effort, unless the brewery insists on it at all times. "So most beer in green and clear glass bottles is still going to be skunky," I said. "Not Frankenmuth Beer!" There you have it ---- a German brewmaster speaks out. RE: Counterflow chillers I don't buy all this talk about not being able to see if your counter- flow chiller is clean or not. I've never had an infection using mine. Here's what I do. I assemble the tubing/siphon pickup/etc then connect to my kitchen faucet and run hot tap water through it for at least 5 minutes (140 dF). Then I siphon bleach solution through it and let sit for 10-15 minutes. After that, I then run hot tap water through again for about 2 minutes. I leave filled with tap water to get my siphon started. After I'm done chilling, I run hot tap water through for 5 minutes to clean. Occasionally (once per 10 batches), I run boiling water through just to be anal. By the way, I siphon into a sanitized plastic fermenter and let sit for about 2 hours to settle any cold/hot break, then from there into my carboy. I have VERY little trub by the time my beer reaches the carboy. Works great! Admittedly, setting up the chiller is small pain, but a BIG glass of homebrew helps calm me down. If you clean the chiller before and after with hot water, I don't see a problem. There's my 2 cents. Just trying to be a MOMILY BUSTER! ...sorry, I just couldn't let another issue go by without that word. :-) Darren *---------------------------------------------------------------------------* | Darren Evans-Young, Sys Prg BITNET: DARREN at UA1VM.BITNET | | The University of Alabama Internet: DARREN at UA1VM.UA.EDU | | Seebeck Computer Center Phone: (205)348-3988 / 5380 | | Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0346 (205)348-3993 FAX | *---------------------------------------------------------------------------* Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 91 09:09:19 -0500 From: Kevin Menice <kxm at tiger1.Prime.COM> To: homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com cc: kxm Subject: Re: Help with using liquid yeast. - ----- I need some advice. I have decided to use liquid yeast (for the 1st time) for my next homebrew. I picked up some Wyeast #1028 at my local homebrew store and popped the inner bubble. In about 4 days the package had swelled to the point that it looked like it would burst so I figured it was time to make a starter. I put about 1/2 pound of liquid extract into about a quart of water (probably way too much extract) and boiled it for about 15 minutes then let it cool. I sanitized 2 beer bottles, torching the tops etc, filled them about 3/4 full of the cooled wort, and pitched the yeast about equally between the two bottles. It has been about a week and not much has happened. There seems to be a tiny amount of C02 percolating from the fermentation locks but barely. If I lightly shake the bottle it percolates for a couple of seconds and then stops. The date code on the package is April and the package says that the yeast has a shelf life of about 6 monthes. It had always been refridgerated until its use. Is it old or did I do something wrong? Can I use this stuff or should I just chuck it? Thanks for any help. -Kevin Menice Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 91 21:32:20 EST From: KARL DESCH <KCDESCH at ucs.indiana.edu> Subject: I've Cut the Keg! A couple weeks ago I asked about how I should go about cutting the top off a 15 gallon keg. Thank you for your suggestions. After determining that the keg was aluminum and not SS, I new that it would be easy to cut myself. A new hacksaw blade was all I needed to saw off the top. Before I had time to make handles for this pot I used it to brew an all-grain brown ale. Luckily I had a friend to help me pour the wort into the hop back. That thing wieghs a ton! A few questions came to mind after brewing with this keg conversion. 1. This keg appears to be all aluminum. If memory serves me correctly Papazian suggests to avoid using aluminum as a boiling pot. What about SS makes it better than aluminum? 2. Because I could barely move this pot when it was full of 5.5 gallons of boil -ing wort I initially siphoned the wort into the hop back. The silicon siphon soon became flacid in the heat so that siphoning was impossible. Did I release any nasties into my brew from this process? I would appreciate any discussion on these questions Thanks again, Karl Desch Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 91 20:40 CST From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling) Subject: STUFF To: Homebrew Digest Fm: Jack Schmidling From: Mike Sharp <msharp at cs.ulowell.edu> >How does one place a false bottom inside a 15gal keg? I've been trying to figure this one out for a while. Try this..... From "EASY MASH".... A few simple mods are required to make it fit the process. A small brass spiggot is fitted to the bottom with a short piece of pipe extending several inches toward the center on the inside. A small piece of window screen is rolled several times around the pipe and secured with a hose clamp or twisted copper wire. The screen roll extends several inches past the end of the pipe and the last inch is bent over itself to prevent anything from entering the spiggot that has not passed through several layers of screen. The original setup also had the traditonal false bottom, fashioned from a SS plate with a zillion holes laboriously punched into it. It has SS screws on the bottom acting as feet to hold it up off the bottom. I abondoned the false bottom on the third batch and found that the screen was all that is needed for a super simple sparge operation. It also serves to keep the hops out of the wort chiller after the boil. ............ I have now produced 5 batches with this system and I think it is safe to say that the false bottom is gross overkill for the homebrewer. From: zentner at ecn.purdue.edu (Michael Zentner) >Wow! Who is this Marilyn and what does it take to get her to one of our tastings! She plays the leading roll in "BREW IT AT HOME" and is a real glutton for PR. You could tell her it is an autograph party and that someone from the Academy Awards board will be there. From: R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas) Subject: primary in SS > Is there any reason for not doing a primary ferment in a 10 gallon stainless brewpot? Cook, cool, and pitch right into the pot. Great minds really do travel the same roads. I just brewed my first batch in my new 10 gal SS kettle and reluctantly fermented it in the old plastic fermenter, really itching to try just what you suggested but decided to save that for the next experiment. Such a shame to put that lovely kettle on the shelf and ferment in plastic. There were several reasons why I decided not not do it but the major one was not to introduce too many variables is my experiments to brew the perfect "EASY MASH" beer. The other experiment failed but it was related. I tried a plate class cover on the primary instead of the usual leaky plastic one but it fit so poorly when the fermenter was full that I put the regular cover on. The other reason I didn't do it was because the thought of leaving the wort in the kettle never occurred to me but the more I think about it, the better I like it. I was thinking in terms of temporary storage of the chilled wort while cleaning out the kettle and this involves too much trouble. I personally do not think the leaking of the top is much of an issue. Mine (Polar) fits well enough that it would be pretty much a one way leak, (CO2 out). I suspect the real problem is in fermenting on the trub from boiling but I will leave that to the experts' opinion. Hopefully, we will have some answers before my next batch. My inclination is to only leave it in a few days or until the main fermentation is over and then rack (drain) into a glass carboy. OOPS... One other problem occurred to me. The wort would not be areated using your system. js Return to table of contents
Date: 19 Nov 91 09:41:06 EST (Tue) From: GC Woods <gcw at garage.att.com> Subject: More keg fermenting questions >- -- Bob Gorman bob at rsi.com uunet!semantic!bob -- >I've been fermenting in SS for about a year now and absolutely love it. >I use the standard 3 and 5 gallon cornelius soda kegs. These have all >the aforementioned advantages in addition to; > >1) Convenience in racking, as George Fix followed up on. >2) You can force carbonate your beer in them. >3) The beer is ready to serve from the keg when conditioning is complete. >4) They are endlessly durable. >5) They don't explode or produce beer volcanos. The idea of fermentimg in soda kegs intrigues me, but I cannot figure out how you fit a air lock or blow out tube to the large opening in a soda keg? Also I would think there could be over an inch of trub in the keg - do you have problems with the dip tube clogging? If 1/4 kegs are used - how is the keg cleaned? Glass carboys are enough of a pain, but at least you can see what junk still stuck inside. Geoff Woods gcw at garage.att.com Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1991 9:55:33 -0500 (EST) From: R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas) Subject: Catamount xmas ale Catamount has a Christmas Ale out. It's very good, but it tastes suspiciously like Frank Jones ESB. Catamount contract-brews for Frank Jones. The xmas ale has no description of ingredients, which is odd because the 3 regular Catamount brews have a rather in-depth list of ingredients. In any event, the brew is reddish, with a nice mix of hops and malt, leaning more towards the malt than FJ ESB (which is very hoppy, like Sierra Nevada Pale Ale). And it costs about $1.50 less a six than the FJ ESB. But it's not the spicy "winter warmer" I had expected. Have to wait for Harpoon's version, I guess. Is Anchor's xmas ale spiced? Quick question: How quickly can beer be force-carbonated in a keg, hours or days? And a warning: If you're thinking of pasteurizing a carbonated bottled beverage (for whatever reason), think again. It *can* be done, but it is dangerous. The bottles can explode, violently. Be careful. Russ Return to table of contents
Date: 19 Nov 91 10:25:00 EST From: "RICHARD HAPANOWICZ" <HAPANOWICZ at bigvax.alfred.edu> Subject: Old ingredients I recently came across some EDME DMS malt extract at a low price. The catch is that it had been sitting around for a long time. How long can one store canned malt extract without side effects? Does the time differ for hop vs. unhopped cans? I brewed a batch up using this malt extract and edme yeast. The yeast activity was good, a layer of foam rose and one day later the bubbling stopped. The final SG was 1.010. The batch consisted of 3.5# of DMS and 1# of amber dry malt, grains and hops. Rick Hapanowicz HAPANOWI at CERAMICS Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 91 10:35:03 EST From: wbt at cbema.att.com Subject: Beer and Pickles > From: semantic!bob at uunet.UU.NET (Robert A. Gorman) > Subject: Re: SS Fermenters > > George continues: > >>There is alas a downside to stainless. First, stainless generally means "less >>stain" and not "no stain". Chlorine is very aggressive to metal if left in >>contact for a sufficient length of time. Sterilizing with boiling water having >>a high iron content can have the same effect. ... I'm not sure I follow this. Iron-bearing water does not, to my knowledge, corrode stainless steel. What does the corrosion product look like? What I suspect you're seeing is iron from the water being deposited on the surface of the stainless steel and corroding, giving a rust stain. I would think that could be removed with a bit of scrubbing, but if not, an acid pickle should do the job. (Hey, if brewers can call sugar-water "wort" metallurgists can call an acid bath a "pickle" 8-) While nitric, sulfuric, and hydrocholoric acids are normally used for industrial pickling of stainless steels, I doubt anything that severe is necessary in this instance. I'd suggest, believe it or not, toilet bowl cleaner, aka phosphoric acid. Stainless is not affected by this, and it's great for removing rust stains. Obviously you'll want to clean and rinse very carefully afterwards, and wear chem-resistant gloves; I'd also try to find a brand of cleaner that minimizes other additions, especially perfumes and dyes. Chlorine cleaning agents should definitely be avoided, especially in pressure kegs. Chlorine can lead to stress corrosion cracking of stainless steels, in addition to less catastrophic forms of attack. > From: gkushmer at Jade.Tufts.EDU > Subject: Old Carboy, new problems (Part II) > > I took the wise advice offered to me from some digest readers and > soaked a sixty-year old bluish-tinted carboy in a strong chlorine-bleach > solution. > > After a few days of this, the carboy now has more of a greenish tinge to it. Any chance that the glass itself is green-tinted? > New Problem: There must have been a ferric pebble on the bottom because a > close examination spotted a rust spot. I've tried scrubbing with a brush > and am now soaking it in a strong ammonia solution. > > Any other advice on what to do? If the spot does not go away, would it affect > wort? Another job for toilet bowl cleaner. Again, rinse very thoroughly when you're done, and use detergent. Let it dry thorougly before adding your sanitizing agent. > Date: Mon, 18 Nov 91 10:00:33 EST > From: Jay Hersh <hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu> > Subject: Hop AA content > > > >OK, if it is impossible for homegrowers to determine the AA content of your > >hops, how do you figure out how much of your hops to use? Many recipes call > >for x amount of bittering units. Do you just guess? > > Well in the past I have seen tables (perhaps in TCJOHB or from the hop >suppliers themselves) which list typical content ranges of various varieties of > hops. So yes, basically you just make an educated guess. Many of the hop growers I've talked to indicate that they use homegrown only for aroma and dry hopping, not for bittering. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bill Thacker AT&T Network Systems - Columbus wbt at cbnews.att.com Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 91 10:15:31 -0700 From: Loren Carter <lcarter at claven.idbsu.edu> Subject: rust in fermenter gk asked about removing rust from a glass fermenter. I use a dilute solution of oxalic acid(1 tsp per gal) to remove rust from my brewing equipment. Remember to rinse afterward. Loren Carter Chemistry Department Boise State University Boise, Idaho Return to table of contents
Date: Tue Nov 19 09:18:36 1991 From: larryba at microsoft.com Subject: Serendipitious Sanitization Experiment Just an interesting side note. 6 weeks ago I made a pilsner style beer. I diverted a quart-o-wort out of the chiller and stored it in the fridge. Last night I wanted to prepare some starter jars for brewing this weekend. I took the wort out, opened it up (to dilute and boil) and what should I find but fermented wort! It was mildly carbonated and had some very peculiar flavors (wild yeast no doubt). But it didn't smell rank or taste obviously infected. The interesting thing is that I would have expected little to no biological activity: the wort was boiling hot going into the chiller. The chiller had been sanitized by draining 3 gal on 195f water through it (leftover boiling water from sanitizing a keg) and the mason jar just came out of the dishwasher. So, at least for my (kitchen) brewery, I need to be aware of wild yeast potentially everywhere. I guess the importance of a strong clean starter yeast to overwhelm those rouge bugs can't be stressed too much. Perhaps my Red Star Bread yeast was escaping? Anyone try this stuff in a lager? It would be an interesting experiment for you folks out there in Net land: Divert a sample of your latest batch before pitching yeast. Let it sit for a month and see what you got. It could be a good test of your overall sanitation efforts - how long can it sit before becoming obviously biological! Also the experiment might be a good indicator of the source of off flavors in your beers. Cheers! Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1991 09:48 PDT From: Bob Jones <BJONES at NOVA.llnl.gov> Subject: Cardboard,Bay Area Brewoff Competition To Jay Hersh - My experience with cardboard nose smell in glass glasses is not isolated to one experience. Several years ago at the Calif. State Fair this problem really caused havoc because the stewards were pouring the beers for the judges. I kept smelling this cardboard/almond nose in the first three beers judged. I finally asked the steward not to pour the beer before we smelled the glasses. The smell was in the glasses! The entire competition was stopped while the glasses were re-rinsed. The problem I noticed most recently was very similar. The glasses were stored in cardboard boxes then rinsed before the competition with hot water only. Another problem is the transport of the glasses from the back room to the judges. They are very often carried in a six pack carrier with the entry. The glasses are sometimes placed upside down in the carrier, where they can pick up this cardboard nose. Does anyone know of a good source for SS storage boxes for glasses? Please direct info. to Russ Wigglesworth. The cardboard nose appeared in the glass glasses on two samples, when each was poured into both glass and hard plastic glasses. Maybe we should flame each glass or I know just pass the bottle around and each judge take a hit :-). I prefer glass glasses to plastic glasses IF the associated smell problem can be absolutely eliminated everytime. The problem as I see it, is the variability of the cleaning(we are all human) of the glass glasses. I am putting together the Bay Area Brewoff this year and we will be using hard plastic glasses for judging. As for the recycling or environmental issue raised by Al Korz I say the homebrewer pays an entry fee to have his/her beer judged in the most unbiased professional manor we can give. So the environment looses out on this one. I will be posting info for the Bay Area Brewoff soon. Briefly, it will be in January 25, 1992 at Lyons Brewery Depot, Dublin, Ca. Categories are : Porter, Dry Stout, Amber Lager (Steam style), Pale Ale(3 styles), Barley Wine, Mead and a Christmas Beer (just for the fun of it). This last category was largely due to the interest I see here in HBD. Happy brewing and good luck! Bob Jones Return to table of contents
Date: 19 Nov 91 09:13:32 U From: "Rad Equipment" <rad_equipment at rad-mac1.ucsf.EDU> Subject: Glass & Cardboard Subject: Glass & Cardboard Time:8:42 AM Date:11/19/91 Since I am one of the organizers of the event (California State Comp) which Bob Jones refers to in his observations of detecting almond/cardboard in glass but not in plastic (HBD #762), perhaps I can answer some of Jay Hersh's questions of HBD #763. The glasses were washed with generic (cheap) automatic dishwashing detergent, after their previous use and then rinsed with hot water just prior to their use in the competition mentioned. The problem here is that the glasses are stored in their original cardboard boxes. The cardboard does seem to remain with the glasses, even after the rinse. Alternate storage containers have been considered in the past however nothing has been adopted which is both economical and superior to the cardboard. We have some 40 dozen of these glasses which we use for 2 major competitions and for several minor club competitons during the year. That translates to 14 boxes of 3 dozen glasses each. The general consensus among the Malts is that we'd like to continue to use the glasses since we share Jay's belief that it is generally a better medium for judging beers. We also want to address the lingering cardboard problem. Many of you are involved with large competitions, how do you store your glassware? We have considered purchasing a mobile dishwasher to take to the various locations at which we hold the major competitions, but this isn't practical. Obviously we need to replace the storage containers or the glassware. Now, this is not to say that the all the aromas which Bob noticed were the fault of the glasses. In fact we had very few such comments this year. We have made a better effort to wipe out the cardboard since we are more aware of it. Perhaps Jay is correct that the fault was really there and that the plastic was masking real problems. The plastic glasses, if they were from the bar we had set up for the day, were the hard, wide mouth, 7 ounce(?), type. But, it is possible that the glassware was at fault, and to eliminate that chance I'd like to correct the storage problem. What are your suggestions? Hmmm, I think I'll bundle these three messages and post them to the new Judges' list. RW... Russ Wigglesworth CI$: 72300,61 |~~| UCSF Medical Center Internet: Rad Equipment at RadMac1.ucsf.edu |HB|\ Dept. of Radiology, Rm. C-324 Voice: 415-476-3668 / 474-8126 (H) |__|/ San Francisco, CA 94143-0628 Return to table of contents
Date: 19 Nov 91 11:20:58 U From: "Rad Equipment" <rad_equipment at rad-mac1.ucsf.EDU> Subject: Raspberry Stout Subject: Raspberry Stout Time:10:58 AM Date:11/19/91 I have a friend who would like to make a Raspberry Stout. If any of you can send me an all-grain recipe I'll pass it along. The raspberries will not be fresh. Frozen I suspect. Thanks, RW... Russ Wigglesworth CI$: 72300,61 |~~| UCSF Medical Center Internet: Rad Equipment at RadMac1.ucsf.edu |HB|\ Dept. of Radiology, Rm. C-324 Voice: 415-476-3668 / 474-8126 (H) |__|/ San Francisco, CA 94143-0628 Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 91 14:29:27 CST From: brian_dykman at SEMATECH.ORG Subject: PASTEURIZATION From: NAME: Brian Dykman FUNC: 200 TEL: 512-356-3156 <DYKMAN.BRIAN at A1 at VAXEN> To: "HOMEBREW at HPFCMI.FC.HP.COM" at INTERNET STEVE KIRKISH (kla!kirkish at Sun.COM) recently asked where in the process a large brewery would pasteurize their beer. Having recently toured both Anhauser-Busch in Ft Collins, CO, and Coors in Golden, CO, A-B definitely pastuerizes after canning/bottling and I believe Coors does, also. Both good tours to see what they do to mass-produced beer. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 91 15:58:29 EST From: Jay Hersh <hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu> Subject: Question on Traditional Recipts Hello, This topic has past, but I think this query got lost as I don't recall ever seeing it posted, or any answers put forth, so I submit it again. >From what I have read it wasn't until the early part of the 19th Century (around 1830 or so) that it became to be understood that there was some organism or chemical responsible for fermentation, and not until the later part of that century (~1860s) that Pasteur documented that the single celled organims we call Yeast were actually responsible. So in light of this how is it that Ben Franklin, George Washington, et. al. have recipes that refer to adding a pint of Yeast?? Was this a name for the sediment (which of course contained the organism we now refer to as Yeast, and perhaps the origin of it's name) which brewers collected from one brew and tossed into the next (brewer's had long known the sediment had some connection with the cause of fermentation, but the mechanism was unknown till Pasteur's discovery despite the earlier innovation by Van Leeowehuk (sp?) of the microscope)?? - JaH History is just a blast from the past... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hopfen und Malz, Gott erhalts Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1991 13:52 PDT From: Bob Jones <BJONES at NOVA.llnl.gov> Subject: Kettle Flames >From Micah Millspaw to J. Schmidling > mine sits on top of a 2500 deg , forced air melting furnace and brings >7 gals to boil in about 15 min. > you can't possibly hurt a steel kettle on anything even that hot I don't know what you used to determine you temperature but it would not be possible to boil water or wort in a controlled manner at 2500 degrees F. The problem is (and its just a small problem) that carbon steel melts at 2500 degrees F. Stainless steel and aluminum have much lower melting temps. I suggest that you try using a tantalum kettle it won't melt till 5100 degrees F. And just so you know water boils at 212 and is a gas after that. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 91 16:26:41 EST From: rlr at bbt.com (Ron Rader) Subject: Antipathy to Coors > Steve Kirkish wonders: > > > | UP YOORS COORS! | > > | Boycott Coors Non-Pasteurized Beer | > > > I couldn't tell who sponsored the message (maybe "Friends of Louis > > Pasteur?") > > I've seen this bumper sticker, and these protests are usually backed > by union members opposed to Coors' anti-union stance. The Coors family > is apparently very politically incorrect, which I won't get into except > to say that they give monetary support to the PMRC. > > For a mass produced swill beer, Coors is actually not bad. > > Ron - -- ron rader, jr rlr at bbt.com OR ...!mcnc!bbt!rlr = Opinions are my own and do | | i gotta six-pack & nothing to do... = not necessarily reflect those | | i gotta six-pack & i don't need you = of BroadBand Tech. (SO THERE!) *** Punk ain't no religious cult, punk means thinking for yourself - DKs *** Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 91 14:55:33 CST From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling) Subject: STUFF mailx -s STUFF homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com To: Homebrew Digest Fm: Jack Schmidling Subject: SS fermenters-yet again (George Fix) >The tool for breaking into or sealing draft kegs with Hoff-Stevens fittings.... I ignored this discussion until I came to "Hoff-Stevens". I have several aluminum 1/4 barrels from my other life that were modified for home kegging as I have previously described. I refuse to use aluminum in this enlightened age but all attempts at finding SS 1/4 bbls in Chicago have hit a stone wall. They simply are not available. I just bought a Cornelius and like it a lot but I much prefer the larger capacity of the 1/4 bbl and I have a lot of H-S hardware and fittings I would like to put back into use. Here is a great business opportunity for some enterprising brewer. "Buy" for the deposit barrels from your friendly distributor and smuggle them to Chicago. Any takers? I have one customer in mind. From: Bob Jones <BJONES at NOVA.llnl.gov> Subject: Mash Tun False Bottoms >I was afraid the mash liquid would not be properly mixed if below a screen, hence the new tubing design. This is a very serious problem with a false bottom. The stuff under the bottom is boiling and if your not very careful, will burn or at least carmelize. On the other hand, if properly controlled, it simulates all the good aspects of decoction mashing without all the mess. Unfortunately, it can not be controlled very easily. The screen wrapped pipe which I described yesterday, eliminates this problem just as your tubing does. I would love to hear from someone who tries my system. The effort and skill required to build what you have described, is enough to scare away most tentative beginners. It is a very clever idea though and I have visions of the ship in the bottle problem. js Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 91 16:31:03 CST From: brian_dykman at SEMATECH.ORG Subject: oops From: NAME: Brian Dykman FUNC: 200 TEL: 512-356-3156 <DYKMAN.BRIAN at A1 at VAXEN> To: "homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com" at INTERNET obvoiusly a typo w/coors below. sorry - rushed From: NAME: Brian Dykman FUNC: 200 TEL: 512-356-3156 <DYKMAN.BRIAN at A1 at VAXEN> Date: 19-Nov-1991 Posted-date: 19-Nov-1991 Precedence: 1 Subject: PASTEURIZATION To: "HOMEBREW at HPFCMI.FC.HP.COM" at INTERNET STEVE KIRKISH (kla!kirkish at Sun.COM) recently asked where in the process a large brewery would pasteurize their beer. Having recently toured both Anhauser-Busch in Ft Collins, CO, and Coors in Golden, CO, A-B definitely pastuerizes after canning/bottling and I believe Coors does, also. Both good tours to see what they do to mass-produced beer. Return to table of contents
End of HOMEBREW Digest #764, 11/20/91 ************************************* -------
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