---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  A couple questions and an answer (Arthur Delano)
  Science Indeed! (Mike Zulauf)
  Portland Beer & etc (Jeff Frane)
  tastes of proto-homebrewers (Chip Hitchcock)
  Dark of the Moon Cream Stout (sbsgrad)
  Green glass / Counterflow chillers (Darren Evans-Young)
  Re: Help with using liquid yeast.
  I've Cut the Keg! (KARL DESCH)
  STUFF (Jack Schmidling)
  More keg fermenting questions (GC Woods)
  Catamount xmas ale (Russ Gelinas)
  Old ingredients ("RICHARD HAPANOWICZ")
  Beer and Pickles (wbt)
  rust in fermenter (Loren Carter)
  Serendipitious Sanitization Experiment (larryba)
  Cardboard,Bay Area Brewoff Competition (Bob Jones)
  Glass & Cardboard ("Rad Equipment")
  Glass & Cardboard                     Time:8:42 AM     Date:11/19/91
  Raspberry Stout ("Rad Equipment")
  Raspberry Stout                       Time:10:58 AM    Date:11/19/91
  PASTEURIZATION (brian_dykman)
  Question on Traditional Recipts (Jay Hersh)
  Kettle Flames (Bob Jones)
  Antipathy to Coors (Ron Rader)
  STUFF (Jack Schmidling)
  oops (brian_dykman)
  PASTEURIZATION


Send submissions to homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
[Please do not send me requests for back issues!]
Archives are available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Nov 91 15:54:12 EST
From: Arthur Delano <ajd at itl.itd.umich.edu>
Subject: A couple questions and an answer


Is there a simple mathematical formula which helps in converting whole-grain
recipes to extract?  Can I have a copy?
(I'd rather brew whole grain, but I can't afford to buy any more brewing
equipment and still have money for ingredients (:->)).

I've got some clear plastic siphon hoses -- the standard 3/8" diameter -- and
a couple of them have clouded up.  I've found that their soaking in bleach
(in roughly the strength Papazian recommends) clouds them.  Are they still
good for siphoning?  I've switched to new, clear hoses for siphoning, but still
use the cloudy ones as blow-off tubes.  Is this wise?  A brief soaking (under
15 minutes) will not cloud the tubes, but I don't feel that they're sanitized
sufficiently that way.

Frank Tutzauer <COMFRANK at ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu> asks about how to duplicate
the color of Anchor Steam Beer.  This summer we used Papazian's second
American Steam recipe in the chart on pp. 146-147 (older edition).  It came
out very well, probably a bit darker than Anchor, but that's just a guess, as
we did not compare them side-by-side.

AjD
ajd at itl.itd.umich.edu

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 18 Nov 91 15:46:05 EST
From: proexam!ken at columbia.edu (Kenneth Munno)

I'm an extract brewer and have had some experience using the
Wyeast liquid cultures.  I wanted to culture the dregs from a
Chimay bottle but it doesn't look like I've had any luck.  It's
been about 4 days with no activity.  I used a Grand Reserve
bottle dated 10/90.  Was this bottle too old to culture?  I had
boiled about 3/4 cup DME with about 3-4 cups of water for 1/2
hour and poured it into a wine jug fitted with an airlock.  I
then cooled the jug to room temperature, flamed the lip of the
beer bottle, and poured the dregs into the jug.  Was there too much
volume of wort in the jug?  Should I have started the dregs in a
smaller volume of wort and then after some activity, pitch that
into a quart or so of wort?  What's the recommended procedure?
Would anyone have an extract-based recipe for a Trappist Ale?
How many lbs. of extract should be used? etc.

proexam!ken at cucrd0.med.columbia.edu (VIA Internet)
 ...!cmcl2!cucrd0!proexam!ken (UUCP)

Kenneth Munno
Professional Examination Service
(212) 870-2154

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 18 Nov 91 14:55:59 -0700
From: Mike Zulauf <zulauf at orbit.Colorado.EDU>
Subject: Science Indeed!

     My sister found this somewhere in her medical studies.  She gave
it to me, and as I found it somewhat enlightening, I decided to pass
it on to the digest.


          Solution of The Secret of Alcoholic Fermentation

     "Beer yeast, when dispersed in water, breaks down into an
infinite number of small spheres.  If these spheres are transferred
to an aqueous solution of sugar they develop into small animals.
They are endowed with a sort of suction trunk with which they gulp
up the sugar from the solution.  Digestion is immediately and clearly
recognizable because of the discharge of excretements.  These animals
evacuate ethyl alcohol from their bowels and carbon dioxide from
their urinary organs.  Thus one can observe how a specifically
lighter fluid is exuded from the anus and rises vertically whereas
a stream of carbon dioxide is ejected at very short intervals from
their enormously large genitals."

By Friedrich Woehler and Justus von Liebig.
Published in the Annals of Chemistry, Volume 29, 1839.

Return to table of contents


Date: 18 Nov 91 17:46:13 EST
From: Jeff Frane <70670.2067 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Portland Beer & etc

See what happens? You go away for a few days to get married and come back to a
mailbox stuffed with Homebrew Digests. Pretty nice. (And thanks to
Martin Lodahl for sending me #760, which got stuck in the CompuServe craw.) With
luck this will actually show up in the Digest; previous messages have been
long-delayed or disappeared altogether.

Comments on 762:

Russ Gelinas suggests fermenting in a brewpot, and why not? When I first met
Dave Logsdon he had developed a terrific system using a converted commercial
coffee maker. He found it, unused, in a military storage sale or some such. The
unit was originally fitted with two urns, which were removed and replaced with a
single tub. The whole thing had to be plumbed properly so that it could be
controlled with steam and/or cold water. Dave mashed in it, sparged out to
another container, then back into the unit for boiling. Cold water was pumped
through the jacket to cool the wort and a thermostat controlled fermentation so
that everything could be done right in the coffee maker. Worked great.

Your problem is not doubt different and I would consider the drawback to be
getting a good fit on the lid while allowing release of CO2. To me it would make
more sense to pick up a used Cornelius keg and fit it with a fermentation lock.
Or maybe two old kegs each half-filled.

Frank Tutzauer, the homesick Cajun: Yeah, and peripherally, it's interesting to
note that chile peppers (and the widely-used peanut) are indigenous to the
Western Hemisphere. They sure caught on in southeast Asia, though.

Steve Kirkish: Beers are pasteurized to kill any potential trouble-causing
microorganisms. Yes, it's generally conceded that pasteurization has a strong
affect on the beer's flavor--negative affect, of course. My understanding is
that most kegged beers are not pasteurized, since the distributor has more
control over their climate (they are kept cold from the time they leave the
brewery until you drink 'em), but bottled beers are pasteurized with long, slow
heat. When I toured the Anchor Brewery about six years ago, they said they used
a "flash-pasteurization" process, with very high heat used very quickly. They
claimed taste tests had proven no negative effects on the beer.

Coors uses some form of micro-pore filtration designed to filter out little
animacules; virtually all microbreweries use some form of filtration which is
nowhere near as fine. Any form of filtration is going to strip other desirable
characteristics from beer along with the yeast.

On where to drink in Portland: I sent Chris this information by e-mail, but
thought some more information might be welcome.

BridgePort Brewery, 1313 NW Marshall, my favorite place to drink really fine
ales, including several served as cask-conditioned; very jolly place, big with
lots of tables and standing room. Gets VERY crowded in the evenings. (Don't
think it's open on Mondays). Excellent pizza.

Portland Brewery, 1339 NW Flanders, longish walking distance from BridgePort.
Very good ales, including the cleanest versions of Grant's Scottish Ale and
Grant's Imperial Stout. Tiny. (Just next door is Bogart's, which has a large
selection of beers)

Produce Row, 204 SE Oak, huge selection of bottled and draught beers, fun place,
great (in two senses) sandwiches.

B. Moloch, 901 SW Salmon, site of the "other" Widmer Brewery and the Heathman
Bakery & Pub, which makes excellent bread and pizzas (of the designer
variety--the lamb sausage, feta and spinach is truly mind-blowing). Goodish
selection of fresh local brew. VERY CROWDED just after work, as it is downtown
and a major trendy spot. Don't let the trendiness scare you off.

Dublin Pub, 6821 SW Beaverton-Hillsdale Hwy. Not really in Portland, but nearby
and they do have more than 100 beers on draught. Pricey and the beers aren't
always at their freshest. But still . . .

There are brewpubs/taverns all over the place owned by the McMenamin Brothers.
I'm not a big fan of their beer, but . . . Among the best is Blue Moon, 432 NW
21st, which is a hip neighborhood (try Casa U Betcha, just down the street, or
Delphina's (Italian)). Or you could try the Baghdad, 34th & SE Hawthorne,
wherein you can drink beer and watch recent movies . . . for a buck.

That oughta do ya. The big Widmer Brewery has tours on Saturday afternoons, from
noon-2 pm. Give them a call (281-BIER) for details.

They also do tours at Blitz-Weinhard, a lovely old regional brewery, although I
believe some of the tourguides are remarkably iggerant.

If you're mobile while here, you should travel up the Columbia Gorge to Hood
River and visit the brewery and White Cap Pub (Full Sail ales).  Or go farther
the other way, to the coast, and visit the BayFront Brewpub in Newport
(fantastic ales) or even the McMenamin brewpub in Lincoln City. At any rate,
have fun!

Also might check out the Burlingame Grocery, which has the largest selection of
bottled beers in town. Basically, if it's available in Oregon they'll have it.
For better prices on more standard beers (Oregon micros, that is) the North
Hollywood Fred Meyer and the Jantzen Beach Safeway have excellent selections and
lower prices.





Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 18 Nov 91 13:12:54 EST
From: cjh at vallance.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: tastes of proto-homebrewers

Jack raises one issue which I haven't seen addressed yet:

> My target was and still is all those people out there that do not even know 
> that one can make drinkable beer at home.  Let's face it, most of them like 
> Bud.  How can the subtleties discussed in these fora possibly be of interest 
> to those people?  

I think you don't understand how hard it is to make something that close to
flavorless, consistently over many batches, starting with natural products
(yeast, whole grains)---and they do this in many different parts of the
country (try comparing St. Louis with Nashua NH, ~40 miles NNW of Boston)!
Leaving aside the opinion of this digest about the results, the
manufacturing process is outstanding; if US automobile makers were anywhere
near so consistent they would have no worries about competition from
imports.
   Telling BudMiLob fans they can easily brew something they like is like
telling someone in front of a 100-piece orchestra equipped randomly with
parts from all the Mahler symphonies that he can make minimalist music with
just a few gestures. Taking your economic viewpoint, I would expect the
results to be a short burst of sales followed by such rotten word of mouth
that the seller would go out of business.

Return to table of contents


Date:    Tue, 19 Nov 91 00:35:04 GMT
From: sbsgrad%sdph.span at Sdsc.Edu
Subject: Dark of the Moon Cream Stout

From: Steve Slade <sslade at ucsd.edu>
Date sent:  18-NOV-1991 14:58:22 PT

My fiancee and I brewed this stout five weeks ago.  I waited until now to
post the recipe so we could let several people taste the final product, and
all like it and want more.  We got this recipe from the Great
Fermentations 1991 brewing supplies catalog.  For five gallons:

5 lbs dry dark malt extract
1.5 lbs crystal malt 20L
2 lbs crystal malt 40L
12 oz chocolate malt
4 oz roasted barley
6 oz dextrin powder
1/2 tsp calcium carbonate
First bittering hops:
        1/2 oz eroica (20 BU)
        1/4 oz chinook (12 BU)
Second bittering hops:
        3/4 oz Nugget (12 BU) (subst. N. Brewer (? BU))
Aromatic hops:
        1 oz cascade (5 BU)
        1 oz eroica (4 BU)
Wyeast #1098 British Ale yeast
1 cup DME for priming
SG = 1.053
FG = 1.020

The catalog describes this as having "overtones of caramel, with a touch of
creaminess which adds richness to the character."

Brewing details and last minute changes:

Made a yeast starter 3 days before pitching. Used 2 tbls DME and 1 cup
water.  Next time use 2 cups water.  All grains were cracked and steeped
for 30 minutes at about 160 F along with the calcium carbonate.  The
steeping water was added to about 2.5 gallons pre-boiled water and the
grains were crudely sparged over the boiling kettle using a collander,
which brought the total boil to about 5 gallons.  Dry malt and dextrin were
added and brought to a boil. First bittering hops were added when the boil
began.  Second bittering hops added after 30 minutes, and boiled for
another 30 minutes.

Chilled with an immersion chiller (this took about 20 minutes to cool about
4 gallons of wort).  BTW an immersion chiller must be stirred often to
achieve efficient cooling.  Racked to a carboy, filled to 5 gallons and let
sit overnight to allow the trub to settle out. (Most had settled after 4
hours or so).  The next morning I racked it to a plastic primary, pitched
the yeast starter, and added the dry hops.

And now for the changes.  I had originally planned for a single stage
fermentation, with bottling a week after pitching.  However, there was no
time to bottle after a week, so I racked to a secondary glass carboy to get
the beer out of the primary, which does not seal very well.  The dry 
hopping should have been done in the secondary, but at the time I had no plans
for using one. I suspect the hops did not spend much time in contact with the 
beer in the primary, as they got pushed up by the krausen and stuck to the 
walls.

When I bottled 2 weeks after brewing, I tried what might be called "wet
hopping."  On the suggestion of sometime brew partner Mike Fetzer, I made a
hop tea by steeping 1 oz N. Brewer in 2 cups water after the water had just
stopped boiling.  This was kept covered for about 10 minutes.  I bollted
half the batch, then added the hop tea and bottled the second half.  The
bottles aged in my closed for two weeks before tasting.

This turned out to be a very nice dry stout.  It is dark and thick, with a
brown head that lasts to the end and sticks to the side of the glass.
The "no tea" beer is not terribly aromatic, and has a noticable bitter
aftertase.  The "hop tea" beer is more aromatic, and has a smoother finish,
with what I think is a better blend of flavors.  My fiancee likes the "hop
tea" beer better as well, but a friend who only likes dark beers likes
the "no tea" beer better.  Perhaps this would be a good way to introduce
friends to darker beers, while preserving half the batch for the true stout
lovers.  I should add that Mike tried this same hop tea idea with an IPA
and a sweet stout.  You could barely taste the difference with the IPA, and
not at all with the sweet stout.  I think you have to use high alpha acid
hops in the tea to make a taste difference.

Anyway, thought I would add this recipe for those who compile them, as it
did turn out quite well and we plan on brewing it again.  Anyone else out
there ever experiment with using a hop tea at bottling time?


Steve Slade (sslade at ucsd.edu)
Center for Magnetic Recording Research
U. C. San Diego

"What a terrible thing to have lost one's mind.  Or not to have a mind at all."
	- Dan Quayle speaking to the United Negro Collage Fund.

Return to table of contents


Date:         Mon, 18 Nov 91 18:54:58 CST
From: Darren Evans-Young <DARREN at UA1VM.UA.EDU>
Subject:      Green glass / Counterflow chillers

RE: Green glass

Here is an excerpt from an article titled The Beer Enthusiast by
Fred Eckhardt from All About Beer magazine (June/July 1990):

Right from the start, Brewmaster Fred was  determined to clear up some of this
Fred's foggy  ideas about beer  and green glass  and skunky flavor  esters. It
seems that light  damage has more to do  with how the glass is  made than with
its color.  If the glass  maker adds chromium oxide  to the process  to defend
against light  of less than 520  angstrom wavelength, then the  possibility of
light damage is severely restricted. To prove his point, we tasted some of his
green bottled Pils. We  started with a six month old sample  that had not only
been exposed to daylight all that time, but had been on an automatic shaker as
well.  The brewery  had been  doing  experiments to  determine the  shelf-life
expectancy of it's products. We compared  the 6-month old shaken light exposed
green bottled sample to that of a current bottling. There was no skunky flavor
in  either. The  beer  was clean,  but there  were  differences between  them,
especially the  color: the shaken  sample was  slightly darker than  the fresh
sample. "But wait,"  Fred said, "there's more." He opened  another 6-month old
sample which had been stored carefully  in its light protected case. This beer
tasted very similar to the other two.  Finally, he offered me a fourth bottle,
an eight month  old CLEAR GLASS bottled  Pils, in a Miller's  bottle which had
also been left in room light (including flourescent light) and it, too, showed
very little difference in flavor. I wouldn't  call such old beer great, but it
certainly didn't show the damage I have detected in so many store worn bottles
I have  spent so much  money on. I  asked Fred if  it was common  practice for
brewer's bottles to be thus protected.  "That's the problem," he said, "I have
to check on the bottle manufacturer all  the time." Most bottle makers make no
such effort, unless the  brewery insists on it at all times.  "So most beer in
green and  clear glass  bottles is  still going  to be  skunky," I  said. "Not
Frankenmuth Beer!" There you have it ---- a German brewmaster speaks out.

RE: Counterflow chillers

I don't buy all this talk about not being able to see if your counter-
flow chiller is clean or not.  I've never had an infection using mine.
Here's what I do.  I assemble the tubing/siphon pickup/etc then
connect to my kitchen faucet and run hot tap water through it for at
least 5 minutes (140 dF).  Then I siphon bleach solution through it
and let sit for 10-15 minutes.  After that, I then run hot tap water
through again for about 2 minutes.  I leave filled with tap water to
get my siphon started.  After I'm done chilling, I run hot tap water
through for 5 minutes to clean.  Occasionally (once per 10 batches),
I run boiling water through just to be anal.  By the way, I siphon
into a sanitized plastic fermenter and let sit for about 2 hours to
settle any cold/hot break, then from there into my carboy.  I have
VERY little trub by the time my beer reaches the carboy. Works great!
Admittedly, setting up the chiller is small pain, but a BIG glass
of homebrew helps calm me down.  If you clean the chiller before and
after with hot water, I don't see a problem.  There's my 2 cents.
Just trying to be a MOMILY BUSTER!  ...sorry, I just couldn't let
another issue go by without that word. :-)

Darren

*---------------------------------------------------------------------------*
| Darren Evans-Young, Sys Prg                  BITNET: DARREN at UA1VM.BITNET  |
| The University of Alabama                  Internet: DARREN at UA1VM.UA.EDU  |
| Seebeck Computer Center                       Phone: (205)348-3988 / 5380 |
| Tuscaloosa, Alabama  35487-0346                      (205)348-3993 FAX    |
*---------------------------------------------------------------------------*

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 18 Nov 91 09:09:19 -0500
From: Kevin Menice <kxm at tiger1.Prime.COM>

To: homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com 
cc: kxm
Subject: Re: Help with using liquid yeast.
- -----

     I need some advice.  I have decided to use liquid yeast (for the 1st time)
for my next homebrew.  I picked up some Wyeast #1028 at my local homebrew store
and popped the inner bubble.  In about 4 days the package had swelled to the 
point that it looked like it would burst so I figured it was time to make a 
starter.  I put about 1/2 pound of liquid extract into about a quart of water 
(probably way too much extract) and boiled it for about 15 minutes then let it
cool.  I sanitized 2 beer bottles, torching the tops etc, filled them about 3/4
full of the cooled wort, and pitched the yeast about equally between the two 
bottles.  It has been about a week and not much has happened.  There seems to 
be a tiny amount of C02 percolating from the fermentation locks but barely.  If
I lightly shake the bottle it percolates for a couple of seconds and then 
stops.  The date code on the package is April and the package says that the 
yeast has a shelf life of about 6 monthes.  It had always been refridgerated 
until its use.  Is it old or did I do something wrong?  Can I use this stuff or
should I just chuck it?  Thanks for any help.

 -Kevin Menice  

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 18 Nov 91 21:32:20 EST
From: KARL DESCH <KCDESCH at ucs.indiana.edu>
Subject: I've Cut the Keg!

A couple weeks ago I asked about how I should go about cutting the top off
a 15 gallon keg.  Thank you for your suggestions.  After determining that the
keg was aluminum and not SS, I new that it would be easy to cut myself.  A new
hacksaw blade was all I needed to saw off the top.

Before 
       I had time to make handles for this pot I used it to brew an all-grain
brown ale.  Luckily I had a friend to help me pour the wort into the hop back.
That thing wieghs a ton!  A few questions came to mind after brewing with this
keg conversion.  

1.  This keg appears to be all aluminum.  If memory serves me correctly Papazian    suggests to avoid using aluminum as a boiling pot.  What about SS makes it
    better than aluminum?

2.  Because I could barely move this pot when it was full of 5.5 gallons of boil    -ing wort I initially siphoned the wort into the hop back.  The silicon
    siphon soon became flacid in the heat so that siphoning was impossible.  Did    I release any nasties into my brew from this process?

I would appreciate any discussion on these questions

Thanks again,

Karl Desch

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 18 Nov 91 20:40 CST
From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: STUFF

 
 To: Homebrew Digest
 Fm: Jack Schmidling
 
 From: Mike Sharp <msharp at cs.ulowell.edu>
 
 >How does one place a false bottom inside a 15gal keg?  I've been trying to 
 figure this one out for a while.
 
 Try this..... From "EASY MASH"....
 
 A few simple mods are required to make it fit the process.  A small brass 
 spiggot is fitted to the bottom with a short piece of pipe extending several 
 inches toward the center on the inside.
 
 A small piece of window screen is rolled several times around the pipe and 
 secured with a hose clamp or twisted copper wire.   The screen roll extends 
 several inches past the end of the pipe and the last inch is bent over itself 
 to prevent anything from entering the spiggot that has not passed through 
 several layers of screen.
 
 The original setup also had the traditonal false bottom, fashioned from a SS 
 plate with a zillion holes laboriously punched into it.  It has SS screws on 
 the bottom acting as feet to hold it up off the bottom.   I abondoned the 
 false bottom on the third batch and found that the screen was all that is 
 needed for a super simple sparge operation.  It also serves to keep the hops 
 out of the wort chiller after the boil.
 ............
 
 I have now produced 5 batches with this system and I think it is safe to say 
 that the false bottom is gross overkill for the homebrewer.
 
 
 From: zentner at ecn.purdue.edu (Michael Zentner)
 
 >Wow!  Who is this Marilyn and what does it take to get her to one of
 our tastings!
  
 She plays the leading roll in "BREW IT AT HOME" and is a real glutton for PR. 
 You could tell her it is an autograph party and that someone from the Academy 
 Awards board will be there.
 
 From: R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas)
 Subject: primary in SS
 
 > Is there any reason for not doing a primary ferment in a 10 gallon 
 stainless brewpot?  Cook, cool, and pitch right into the pot. 
 
 Great minds really do travel the same roads.
 
 I just brewed my first batch in my new 10 gal SS kettle and reluctantly 
 fermented it in the old plastic fermenter, really itching to try just what 
 you suggested but decided to save that for the next experiment.  Such a shame 
 to put that lovely kettle on the shelf and ferment in plastic.
 
 There were several reasons why I decided not not do it but the major one was 
 not to introduce too many variables is my experiments to brew the perfect 
 "EASY MASH" beer.  The other experiment failed but it was related.
 
 I tried a plate class cover on the primary instead of the usual leaky plastic 
 one but it fit so poorly when the fermenter was full that I put the regular 
 cover on.
 
 The other reason I didn't do it was because the thought of leaving the wort 
 in the kettle never occurred to me but the more I think about it, the better 
 I like it.  I was thinking in terms of temporary storage of the chilled wort 
 while cleaning out the kettle and this involves too much trouble.
 
 I personally do not think the leaking of the top is much of an issue.  Mine 
 (Polar) fits well enough that it would be pretty much a one way leak, (CO2 
 out).
 
 I suspect the real problem is in fermenting on the trub from boiling but I 
 will leave that to the experts' opinion.  Hopefully, we will have some 
 answers before my next batch.
 
 My inclination is to only leave it in a few days or until the main 
 fermentation is over and then rack (drain) into a glass carboy.
 
 OOPS... One other problem occurred to me.  The wort would not be areated 
 using your system.
 
 js
 
 

Return to table of contents


Date: 19 Nov 91 09:41:06 EST (Tue)
From: GC Woods <gcw at garage.att.com>
Subject: More keg fermenting questions


>- -- Bob Gorman            bob at rsi.com           uunet!semantic!bob --
>I've been fermenting in SS for about a year now and absolutely love it.
>I use the standard 3 and 5 gallon cornelius soda kegs.   These have all
>the aforementioned advantages in addition to;
>
    >1) Convenience in racking, as George Fix followed up on.
    >2) You can force carbonate your beer in them.
    >3) The beer is ready to serve from the keg when conditioning is complete.
    >4) They are endlessly durable.
    >5) They don't explode or produce beer volcanos.

The idea of fermentimg in soda kegs intrigues me, but I cannot figure out
how you fit a air lock or blow out tube to the large opening in a soda keg? 
Also I would think there could be over an inch of trub in the keg - do you 
have problems with the dip tube clogging?

If 1/4 kegs are used - how is the keg cleaned? Glass carboys are enough
of a pain, but at least you can see what junk still stuck inside.

				Geoff Woods
				gcw at garage.att.com

Return to table of contents


Date:    Tue, 19 Nov 1991 9:55:33 -0500 (EST)
From: R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas)
Subject: Catamount xmas ale

  Catamount has a Christmas Ale out.  It's very good, but it tastes
suspiciously like Frank Jones ESB.  Catamount contract-brews for Frank
Jones.  The xmas ale has no description of ingredients, which is odd 
because the 3 regular Catamount brews have a rather in-depth list of 
ingredients.  In any event, the brew is reddish, with a nice mix of
hops and malt, leaning more towards the malt than FJ ESB (which is very
hoppy, like Sierra Nevada Pale Ale).  And it costs about $1.50 less a six 
than the FJ ESB.  But it's not the spicy "winter warmer" I had expected.  
Have to wait for Harpoon's version, I guess.  Is Anchor's xmas ale spiced?

Quick question:  How quickly can beer be force-carbonated in a keg, hours
or days?

And a warning: If you're thinking of pasteurizing a carbonated bottled
beverage (for whatever reason), think again.  It *can* be done, but it
is dangerous.  The bottles can explode, violently.  Be careful.

Russ

Return to table of contents


Date: 19 Nov 91 10:25:00 EST
From: "RICHARD HAPANOWICZ" <HAPANOWICZ at bigvax.alfred.edu>
Subject: Old ingredients


  I recently came across some EDME DMS malt extract at a low price.  
The catch is that it had been sitting around for a long time.  How long
can one store canned malt extract without side effects?  Does the time
differ for hop vs. unhopped cans?    I brewed a batch up using this malt
extract and edme yeast.  The yeast activity was good, a layer of foam rose
and one day later the bubbling stopped.  The final SG was 1.010.  The batch
consisted of 3.5# of DMS and 1# of amber dry malt, grains and hops.

Rick Hapanowicz 
HAPANOWI at CERAMICS



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 19 Nov 91 10:35:03 EST
From: wbt at cbema.att.com
Subject: Beer and Pickles

> From: semantic!bob at uunet.UU.NET (Robert A. Gorman)
> Subject: Re: SS Fermenters
> 
> George continues:
> 
>>There is alas a downside to stainless. First, stainless generally means "less
>>stain" and not "no stain". Chlorine is very aggressive to metal if left in 
>>contact for a sufficient length of time. Sterilizing with boiling water having
>>a high iron content can have the same effect. ...

I'm not sure I follow this.  Iron-bearing water does not, to my knowledge,
corrode stainless steel.  What does the corrosion product look like?

What I suspect you're seeing is iron from the water being deposited on the
surface of the stainless steel and corroding, giving a rust stain.  I would
think that could be removed with a bit of scrubbing, but if not, an acid
pickle should do the job.  (Hey, if brewers can call sugar-water "wort" 
metallurgists can call an acid bath a "pickle" 8-)

While nitric, sulfuric, and hydrocholoric acids are normally used for
industrial pickling of stainless steels, I doubt anything that severe is
necessary in this instance.  I'd suggest, believe it or not, toilet bowl
cleaner, aka phosphoric acid.  Stainless is not affected by this, and it's
great for removing rust stains.  Obviously you'll want to clean and rinse
very carefully afterwards, and wear chem-resistant gloves; I'd also try to 
find a brand of cleaner that minimizes other additions, especially 
perfumes and dyes.

Chlorine cleaning agents should definitely be avoided, especially in
pressure kegs.  Chlorine can lead to stress corrosion cracking of 
stainless steels, in addition to less catastrophic forms of attack.

> From: gkushmer at Jade.Tufts.EDU
> Subject: Old Carboy, new problems (Part II)
> 
> I took the wise advice offered to me from some digest readers and
> soaked a sixty-year old bluish-tinted carboy in a strong chlorine-bleach
> solution.  
> 
> After a few days of this, the carboy now has more of a greenish tinge to it.

Any chance that the glass itself is green-tinted?  

> New Problem:  There must have been a ferric pebble on the bottom because a 
> close examination spotted a rust spot.  I've tried scrubbing with a brush
> and am now soaking it in a strong ammonia solution.
> 
> Any other advice on what to do?  If the spot does not go away, would it affect
> wort?  

Another job for toilet bowl cleaner.  Again, rinse very thoroughly when
you're done, and use detergent.  Let it dry thorougly before adding your
sanitizing agent.

> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 91 10:00:33 EST
> From: Jay Hersh <hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu>
> Subject: Hop AA content
> 
> 
> >OK, if it is impossible for homegrowers to determine the AA content of your 
> >hops, how do you figure out how much of your hops to use?  Many recipes call
> >for x amount of bittering units.  Do you just guess?
> 
> Well in the past I have seen tables (perhaps in TCJOHB or from the hop
>suppliers themselves) which list typical content ranges of various varieties of
> hops. So yes, basically you just make an educated guess. 

Many of the hop growers I've talked to indicate that they use homegrown
only for aroma and dry hopping, not for bittering.

 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker	AT&T Network Systems - Columbus      wbt at cbnews.att.com


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 19 Nov 91 10:15:31 -0700
From: Loren Carter <lcarter at claven.idbsu.edu>
Subject: rust in fermenter

gk asked about removing rust from a glass fermenter.  I use a dilute solution 
of oxalic acid(1 tsp per gal) to remove rust from my brewing equipment.  
Remember to rinse afterward. 
Loren Carter
Chemistry Department
Boise State University
Boise, Idaho

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue Nov 19 09:18:36 1991
From: larryba at microsoft.com
Subject: Serendipitious Sanitization Experiment

Just an interesting side note.  6 weeks ago I made a pilsner style
beer. I diverted a quart-o-wort out of the chiller and stored it in
the fridge. Last night I wanted to prepare some starter jars for
brewing this weekend. I took the wort out, opened it up (to dilute
and boil) and what should I find but fermented wort!

It was mildly carbonated and had some very peculiar flavors (wild
yeast no doubt).  But it didn't smell rank or taste obviously infected.

The interesting thing is that I would have expected little to no
biological activity: the wort was boiling hot going into the
chiller.  The chiller had been sanitized by draining 3 gal on 195f
water through it (leftover boiling water from sanitizing a keg) and
the mason jar just came out of the dishwasher.

So, at least for my (kitchen) brewery, I need to be aware of wild yeast
potentially everywhere.  I guess the importance of a strong clean
starter yeast to overwhelm those rouge bugs can't be stressed too much.
Perhaps my Red Star Bread yeast was escaping?  Anyone try this stuff in
a lager?

It would be an interesting experiment for you folks out there in Net
land:  Divert a sample of your latest batch before pitching yeast.
Let it sit for a month and see what you got.  It could be a good test
of your overall sanitation efforts - how long can it sit before
becoming obviously biological!  Also the experiment might be a good
indicator of the source of off flavors in your beers.

Cheers!



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1991 09:48 PDT
From: Bob Jones <BJONES at NOVA.llnl.gov>
Subject: Cardboard,Bay Area Brewoff Competition

To Jay Hersh -
My experience with cardboard nose smell in glass glasses is not isolated 
to one experience. Several years ago at the Calif. State Fair this problem 
really caused havoc because the stewards were pouring the beers for the 
judges. I kept smelling this cardboard/almond nose in the first three beers 
judged. I finally asked the steward not to pour the beer before we smelled 
the glasses. The smell was in the glasses! The entire competition was 
stopped while the glasses were re-rinsed. The problem I noticed most 
recently was very similar. The glasses were stored in cardboard boxes 
then rinsed before the competition with hot water only. Another problem is 
the transport of the glasses from the back room to the judges. They are 
very often carried in a six pack carrier with the entry. The glasses are 
sometimes placed upside down in the carrier, where they can pick up this 
cardboard nose. Does anyone know of a good source for SS storage 
boxes for glasses? Please direct info. to Russ Wigglesworth. The 
cardboard nose appeared in the glass glasses on two samples, when 
each was poured into both glass and hard plastic glasses. Maybe we 
should flame each glass or I know just pass the bottle around and each 
judge take a hit :-). I prefer glass glasses to plastic glasses IF the 
associated smell problem can be absolutely eliminated everytime. The 
problem as I see it, is the variability of the cleaning(we are all human) of 
the glass glasses. I am putting together the Bay Area Brewoff this year 
and we will be using hard plastic glasses for judging. As for the recycling 
or environmental issue raised by Al Korz I say the homebrewer pays an 
entry fee to have his/her beer judged in the most unbiased professional 
manor we can  give. So the environment looses out on this one.

I will be posting info for the Bay Area Brewoff soon. Briefly, it will be in 
January 25, 1992 at Lyons Brewery Depot, Dublin, Ca. Categories are :
Porter, Dry Stout, Amber Lager (Steam style), Pale Ale(3 styles), Barley 
Wine, Mead and a Christmas Beer (just for the fun of it). This last category 
was largely due to the interest I see here in HBD. Happy brewing and 
good luck!

Bob Jones


Return to table of contents


Date: 19 Nov 91 09:13:32 U
From: "Rad Equipment" <rad_equipment at rad-mac1.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Glass & Cardboard

Subject:  Glass & Cardboard                     Time:8:42 AM     Date:11/19/91
Since I am one of the organizers of the event (California State Comp) which Bob
Jones refers to in his observations of detecting almond/cardboard in glass but
not in plastic (HBD #762), perhaps I can answer some of Jay Hersh's questions
of HBD #763.

The glasses were washed with generic (cheap) automatic dishwashing detergent,
after their previous use and then rinsed with hot water just prior to their use
in the competition mentioned.  The problem here is that the glasses are stored
in their original cardboard boxes.  The cardboard does seem to remain with the
glasses, even after the rinse.  Alternate storage containers have been
considered in the past however nothing has been adopted which is both
economical and superior to the cardboard.  We have some 40 dozen of these
glasses which we use for 2 major competitions and for several minor club
competitons during the year.  That translates to 14 boxes of 3 dozen glasses
each.

The general consensus among the Malts is that we'd like to continue to use the
glasses since we share Jay's belief that it is generally a better medium for
judging beers.  We also want to address the lingering cardboard problem.  Many
of you are involved with large competitions, how do you store your glassware? 
We have considered purchasing a mobile dishwasher to take to the various
locations at which we hold the major competitions, but this isn't practical. 
Obviously we need to replace the storage containers or the glassware.

Now, this is not to say that the all the aromas which Bob noticed were the
fault of the glasses.  In fact we had very few such comments this year.  We
have made a better effort to wipe out the cardboard since we are more aware of
it.  Perhaps Jay is correct that the fault was really there and that the
plastic was masking real problems.  The plastic glasses, if they were from the
bar we had set up for the day, were the hard, wide mouth, 7 ounce(?), type. 
But, it is possible that the glassware was at fault, and to eliminate that
chance I'd like to correct the storage problem.

What are your suggestions?  Hmmm, I think I'll bundle these three messages and
post them to the new Judges' list.

RW...

      Russ Wigglesworth              CI$:      72300,61
|~~|  UCSF Medical Center            Internet: Rad Equipment at RadMac1.ucsf.edu
|HB|\ Dept. of Radiology, Rm. C-324  Voice:    415-476-3668 / 474-8126 (H)
|__|/ San Francisco, CA 94143-0628


Return to table of contents


Date: 19 Nov 91 11:20:58 U
From: "Rad Equipment" <rad_equipment at rad-mac1.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Raspberry Stout

Subject:  Raspberry Stout                       Time:10:58 AM    Date:11/19/91
I have a friend who would like to make a Raspberry Stout.  If any of you can
send me an all-grain recipe I'll pass it along.  The raspberries will not be
fresh.  Frozen I suspect.

Thanks, RW...

      Russ Wigglesworth              CI$:      72300,61
|~~|  UCSF Medical Center            Internet: Rad Equipment at RadMac1.ucsf.edu
|HB|\ Dept. of Radiology, Rm. C-324  Voice:    415-476-3668 / 474-8126 (H)
|__|/ San Francisco, CA 94143-0628


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 19 Nov 91 14:29:27 CST
From: brian_dykman at SEMATECH.ORG
Subject: PASTEURIZATION

From:	NAME: Brian Dykman                  
	FUNC: 200                             
	TEL: 512-356-3156                     <DYKMAN.BRIAN at A1 at VAXEN>
To:	"HOMEBREW at HPFCMI.FC.HP.COM" at INTERNET


               STEVE KIRKISH (kla!kirkish at Sun.COM) recently asked where in 
          the process a large brewery would pasteurize their beer. Having 
          recently toured both Anhauser-Busch in Ft Collins, CO, and Coors in 
          Golden, CO, A-B definitely pastuerizes after canning/bottling and 
          I believe Coors does, also. Both good tours to see what they do to 
          mass-produced beer.

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 19 Nov 91 15:58:29 EST
From: Jay Hersh <hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu>
Subject: Question on Traditional Recipts


Hello, 

This topic has past, but I think this query got lost as I don't recall ever
seeing it posted, or any answers put forth, so I submit it again.

>From what I have read it wasn't until the early part of the 19th Century
(around 1830 or so) that it became to be understood that there was some
organism or chemical responsible for fermentation, and not until the later part
of that century (~1860s) that Pasteur documented that the single celled
organims we call Yeast were actually responsible.

So in light of this how is it that Ben Franklin, George Washington, et. al. 
have recipes that refer to adding a pint of Yeast?? Was this a name for the
sediment (which of course contained the organism we now refer to as Yeast, and
perhaps the origin of it's name) which brewers collected from one brew and
tossed into the next (brewer's had long known the sediment had some connection
with the cause of fermentation, but the mechanism was unknown till Pasteur's
discovery despite the earlier innovation by Van Leeowehuk (sp?) of the
microscope)??

 - JaH 
History is just a blast from the past...


- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hopfen und Malz, Gott erhalts





Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1991 13:52 PDT
From: Bob Jones <BJONES at NOVA.llnl.gov>
Subject: Kettle Flames



>From Micah Millspaw

to J. Schmidling
> mine sits on top of a 2500 deg , forced air melting furnace and brings
>7 gals to boil in about 15 min.
> you can't possibly hurt a steel kettle on anything even that hot

  I don't know what you used to determine you temperature but it would
 not be possible to boil water or wort in a controlled manner at 2500
 degrees F. The problem is (and its just a small problem) that carbon
 steel melts at 2500 degrees F. Stainless steel and aluminum have much
 lower melting temps. I suggest that you try using a tantalum kettle
 it won't melt till 5100 degrees F. And just so you know water boils
 at 212 and is a gas after that.


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 19 Nov 91 16:26:41 EST
From: rlr at bbt.com (Ron Rader)
Subject: Antipathy to Coors

> Steve Kirkish wonders:
> 
> >             |               UP YOORS COORS!               |
> >             |   Boycott Coors        Non-Pasteurized Beer | 
> 
> > I couldn't tell who sponsored the message (maybe "Friends of Louis
> > Pasteur?")
> 
>   I've seen this bumper sticker, and these protests are usually backed
> by union members opposed to Coors' anti-union stance.  The Coors family
> is apparently very politically incorrect, which I won't get into except
> to say that they give monetary support to the PMRC.
> 
>   For a mass produced swill beer, Coors is actually not bad.
> 
>   Ron

- -- 
ron rader, jr  rlr at bbt.com OR ...!mcnc!bbt!rlr = Opinions are my own and do
| |  i gotta six-pack & nothing to do...       = not necessarily reflect those
 | | i gotta six-pack & i don't need you       = of BroadBand Tech. (SO THERE!)
  *** Punk ain't no religious cult, punk means thinking for yourself - DKs ***

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 19 Nov 91 14:55:33 CST
From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: STUFF


 mailx -s STUFF homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
 
 To: Homebrew Digest
 Fm: Jack Schmidling
 
 Subject: SS fermenters-yet again (George Fix)
 
 >The tool for breaking into or sealing draft kegs with Hoff-Stevens 
 fittings....
 
 I ignored this discussion until I came to "Hoff-Stevens".
 
 I have several aluminum 1/4 barrels from my other life that were modified for 
 home kegging as I have previously described.  I refuse to use aluminum in 
 this enlightened age but all attempts at finding SS 1/4 bbls in Chicago have 
 hit a stone wall.   They simply are not available.
 
 I just bought a Cornelius and like it a lot but I much prefer the larger 
 capacity of the 1/4 bbl and I have a lot of H-S hardware and fittings I would 
 like to put back into use.
 
 Here is a great business opportunity for some enterprising brewer.  "Buy" for 
 the deposit barrels from your friendly distributor and smuggle them to 
 Chicago.  Any takers?  I have one customer in mind.
 
 From: Bob Jones <BJONES at NOVA.llnl.gov>
 Subject: Mash Tun False Bottoms
 
 >I was afraid the mash liquid would not be properly mixed if below a screen, 
 hence the new tubing design.
 
 This is a very serious problem with a false bottom.  The stuff under the 
 bottom is boiling and if your not very careful, will burn or at least 
 carmelize.
 
 On the other hand, if properly controlled, it simulates all the good aspects 
 of decoction mashing without all the mess.  Unfortunately, it can not be 
 controlled very easily.
 
 The screen wrapped pipe which I described yesterday, eliminates this problem 
 just as your tubing does.
 
 I would love to hear from someone who tries my system.  The effort and skill 
 required to build what you have described, is enough to scare away most 
 tentative beginners.  It is a very clever idea though and I have visions of 
 the ship in the bottle problem.
 
 js
 

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 19 Nov 91 16:31:03 CST
From: brian_dykman at SEMATECH.ORG
Subject: oops

From:	NAME: Brian Dykman                  
	FUNC: 200                             
	TEL: 512-356-3156                     <DYKMAN.BRIAN at A1 at VAXEN>
To:	"homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com" at INTERNET


            obvoiusly a typo w/coors below. sorry - rushed



From:	NAME: Brian Dykman                  
	FUNC: 200                             
	TEL: 512-356-3156                     <DYKMAN.BRIAN at A1 at VAXEN>
Date:	19-Nov-1991
Posted-date: 19-Nov-1991
Precedence: 1
Subject: PASTEURIZATION
To:	"HOMEBREW at HPFCMI.FC.HP.COM" at INTERNET


               STEVE KIRKISH (kla!kirkish at Sun.COM) recently asked where in 
          the process a large brewery would pasteurize their beer. Having 
          recently toured both Anhauser-Busch in Ft Collins, CO, and Coors in 
          Golden, CO, A-B definitely pastuerizes after canning/bottling and 
          I believe Coors does, also. Both good tours to see what they do to 
          mass-produced beer.

Return to table of contents



End of HOMEBREW Digest #764, 11/20/91
*************************************
-------

---