FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Klages, Beer Hunter  (Jack Schmidling)
  Starters and thoughts on bittering hops ("Dr. Full-Time")
  RE:gambrinus (DBA-CRI)" <CRIPRT at RULMVS.LEIDENUNIV.NL>
  cleaning copper tubing (Mike Zentner)
  Stove Mess Cleaning (Justin Aborn)
  homebrew in Sweden ("Spencer W. Thomas")
  clean boilover ("KATMAN.WNETS385")
  Oxygen and hot wort ("Rad Equipment")
  Oxygen and hot wort                   Time:9:35 AM     Date:1/6/92
  RE- MESS> Better living thr (Chris McDermott)
  Is boiling (water) really n (Chris McDermott)
  Hunter Monitors (Kieran O'Connor)
  an in-cider's view ("Knight,Jonathan")
  More International Supplier Questions (Jim Grady)
  Re: altbier (wbt)
  Re: MESS (larryba)
  Re: Coop Flaked Grains (larryba)
  Randy at rdr.com: Misc. questions (larryba)
  Re: Fermentation and surface area (korz)
  racking (Alan Mayman)
  Casks (korz)
  Re: Mashing questions/answers (korz)
  Re: Pitching at high krauesen (korz)
  misc comments (Bob Jones)
  Sour Mashing (Bob Jones)
  Mash/Lauter Tun Construction (Tom Bower)
  Spargin blues...... (Jim White)
  Temperature Calculations (Brian Capouch)
  All Grain Weizen (Jon Binkley)


Send submissions to homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
[Please do not send me requests for back issues!]
Archives are available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Jan 92 22:11 CST
From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Klages, Beer Hunter 

 
 To: Homebrew Digest
 Fm: Jack Schmidling
 
 Subj: Klages Conversion
 
 There has been a lot of discussion on the virtues of Klages malt and the 
 following is my experience with my first Klages batch, mashed this weekend.
 
 My previous 7, all-grain brews have been made with 6 row and two different 
 two row, barley types.  I have used everything from the most complicated, 
 partial decoction to straignt infusion.  The iodine test has always indicated 
 incomplete conversion and I concluded that, as long as the beer is good and 
 the yield is acceptable, I would just not worry about the iodine test.
 
 This weekend I brewed up a batch using Klages from Minnesota Malting (.55/lb) 
 and using a two step infusion, I achieved a neutral iodine test after 60 min 
 at 155 degs.  I did not test it before the hour, so I have no idea when 
 conversion was complete.
 
 The process was 9 lbs malt and 4 gal doughin at 110 degs, followed by 60 min 
 at 155 and 15 min at 175.
 
 This is of course, anecdotal and a sample of one but all science has to start 
 somewhere.
 
 From: stevie at spss.com
 Subject: Comments on Beer Hunter Comments
 
 >Why not simply tape it?  Good question, Jack.  The reason is that the 
 Discovery Channel is a commercial operation.  If you want to tape the series, 
 you have to edit out the commercials.
 
 That is a mighty strange bit of logic.  The vast majority of the taping I do 
 is so that I can zipp through the commercials later and not have to put up 
 with them.
 
 >  If you're taping as you're watching, this means you have to SIT through
 the commercials. 
 
 I am utterly baffled as to why anyone would do that unless one were a pirate 
 and selling copies.
 
 > The first runnings (har har) of the series were post-midnight
 Central Time.  Sitting through all the ads for 900 party lines was far worse
 than watching the "fluffy" parts of the series (with suitable background music
 from Copeland or Dvorak or whoever).
 
 I thought that was the reason someone invented VCR's.
 
 > I broke down, ordered the tapes, and got the scenes back.  So, if you cough 
 up the dough and buy "Beer Hunter," you can be confident in the knowledge 
 that you'll get more footage for your bucks.
 
 Far be it for me to suggest that people stop buying video tapes but I could 
 never understand why people buy stuff that is broadcast and free.  If nothing 
 else, the broadcast quality and first generation copy is/can be, far superior 
 to the copy you would purchase.
 
 js
 
~.

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Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1992 14:22:56 -0600
From: "Dr. Full-Time" <enders at plains.NoDak.edu>
Subject: Starters and thoughts on bittering hops


     With all the talk about when to pitch starters, I'd like to
add my own data point to the discussion.  What I almost always
do is pitch the slurry after the starter has fermented out (or 
almost so).  While it is true that the dormant yeast cells have
to wake up and start reproducing, I feel the sheer number of cells
you dump into the wort wins out here.  Fermentation is usually up 
and running within 6-8 hours (from a 500 ml starter).  Also, I 
can taste the "beer" I decant from the starter, giving me a 
check on the health of the starter (one less thing to worry
about :-).

     However, I do feel that exactly when to pitch depends
somewhat on the yeast strain involved.  Vigorous yeasts like
Whitbread can stand up to waiting till the starter ferments out.
On the other hand, Sierra Nevada (cultured fron the bottle)
seems to be a little slow getting started again.  My most
recent batch (01/01/91) pitched with SN took about 16 hours
to get up and running, so the pitch at high krausen crowd may
have something here.

     Another thought I had whilst brewing this last batch:
Is there *really* any difference in which variety you use for
bittering hops?  I mean, after 45-60 minutes in the boil, I
doubt there are many aromatic compounds left, and as for
flavour, I can't say for sure, but it seems to me that it
doesn't make a bit of difference.  What I've been doing is
using whatever medium to high alpha hop I have on hand.  Also,
it seems to be a waste of good Halertauer, Tetnanger, Saaz, etc.,
to use them for bittering.  Then again, I suppose you *could*
taste the difference if you used 3 oz. of 3% alpha Halertauer
for bittering :-)!  What say, folks?

===============================================================================

Todd Enders - WD0BCI                  ARPA: enders at plains.nodak.edu
Computer Center                       UUCP: ...!uunet!plains!enders
Minot State University                  or: ...!hplabs!hp-lsd!plains!enders
Minot, ND  58701                     Bitnet: enders at plains

     "The present would be full of all possible futures,
      if the past had not already projected a pattern upon it" - Andre' Gide

===============================================================================


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Date:    Mon, 06 Jan 92 10:22 CET
From: "R.P.M. Tebarts (DBA-CRI)" <CRIPRT at RULMVS.LEIDENUNIV.NL>
Subject: RE:gambrinus


CAMBRINUS OR GAMBRINUS IS TOLD TO BE THE SAME AS THE BELGIUM
DUKE JAN THE FIRST OF BRABANT AND LIMBURG.  HIS FULL NAME WAS
JAN PRIMUS. HE LIVED FROM 1261-1294 OR 1253-1294.
THE BELGIUMS SAY THAT HE WAS BORN OR BUILDED THE CITY OF
CAMBRAI.

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Date: Mon, 6 Jan 92 08:31:13 -0500
From: zentner at ecn.purdue.edu (Mike Zentner)
Subject: cleaning copper tubing


Back when this came about, I think I was the main advocate of 
cleaning.  My batch of tubing had a pretty bad case of "grease"
inside, to the point where, when I let water (cold or hot) drain
out of it, the leaving the last few drops to fall on the counter.
Silvery specs appeared to be floating on these water drops, but
this was really small pools of grease/oil.  So, to tell how much,
if at all, your tubing needs cleaning, take a Q-tip dipped in
propanol or ethanol and stick it in the end of your tubing, swishing
it around.  If it comes out black, then you know you've got more
than copper on the wort side of your tubing.

Here's the bad news...If you've already built your chiller, it will
be very difficult to clean.  Here's a list of things I tried running
through mine (a list of things that did not complete the job):  many
flushes with cold and boiling water (more than 10) combined with 
dishsoap, then bleach, alcohol, and, in desperation, Lysol.  No amount of
running anything through it would stop the grease "particulates"
from dropping out.  The Q-tip still came out black (have to stick it
in a little farther each time you test).

Finally, I took the thing out in the back yard, uncoiled it, and with
much work and undiluted dishsoap, I was able to snake a stiff wire
through all 30 or so feet of it (coming from both ends and hooking
in the middle eventually).  All the scraping, twisting, and pushing
the wire combined with the dishsoap really loosened a tube full of
black gunk.  To one end of the wire, I hooked a very strong string
and pulled it through.  To wash out the soap, I hooked the whole
thing to a garden hose and ran water through for a while.  Then, to
get the last of the crud out, I hooked cotton balls on the string,
soaked them in alcohol, and pulled them through.  At the other end
of the tube, I replaced the cotton and worked my way back and
forth several more times.  It was finally clean!

Anyhow, the lesson learned was to clean the tubing BEFORE you use
it if it is dirty, because no amount of rinsing will get the 
stuff off completely, just like your dishes don't wash themselves
without either severe agitation by your hands or a water jet (which
you can't produce inside of tubing.

What to use for sanitizers?  Try an experiment.  Cut off 1 inch
pieces or tubing and soak each of them in 1 of your proposed
sanitizers, using one in plain water as a control.  When I did this
with water, bleach, and B-Brite, I came to the conclusion that
plain water caused the least deterioration.  I usually boil 2 
gallons worth of water to run through the chiller prior to the
wort, and this seems to have worked fine so far (run the boiling
water through before you've filled the other side of the chiller
with cooling water).  Of course, should anyone use this method, it's
important to note that when you're done brewing for the night or
day, you're not done until you run lots of hot water through the
chiller to get out any remaining sugars, and then work it around in
a circle to drain it and prevent mold.

Sorry for the length, but this was a real pain when it happened to
me and if it can save someone else the aggrivation, I think it's
worth it.  Granted, the fouling of my tubing may have been a
severe case, but it is very worth checking.

Mike Zentner     zentner at ecn.purdue.edu

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Date:     Mon, 6 Jan 92 9:34:56 EST
From: Justin Aborn <jaborn at BBN.COM>
Subject:  Stove Mess Cleaning

Dave,

If you get one of those really bad messes, you can clean
it off your stove with oven cleaner.

Justin

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Date: Mon, 6 Jan 92 10:53:48 EDT
From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu>
Subject: homebrew in Sweden

I'm not sure about Sweden, but in Norway (when I was there 12 years
ago, anyway), it was definitely illegal to brew your own.  Not that
this stopped people from doing it (although more of the people I knew
distilled their own, also illegal), but I would be surprised if there
were good sources of HB supplies and equipment to be found.  I do
remember ads in the subway for a malt extract that said (in
translation) "It is forbidden to brew beer from [brand] malt extract." 
Sort of like the situation here during prohibition.  ("If you were to
take this can of malt extract, mix it with so much water and sugar and
add yeast, you would get an illegal beverage.  So don't do it.")

=Spencer W. Thomas 		HSITN, U of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI 48109
spencer.thomas at med.umich.edu	313-747-2778


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Date: Mon, 6 Jan 92 15:54 GMT
From: "KATMAN.WNETS385" <6790753%356_WEST_58TH_5TH_FL%NEW_YORK_NY%WNET_6790753 at mcimail.com>
Subject: clean boilover



     Date: 06-Jan-92      Time: 10:52 AM       Msg: EXT02571

Hi HBDers - Dave asked about cleaning up after boilovers:

to clean up old boilover stuff, you can wet it down, sprinkle baking soda
thickly on it to make a paste, and let it sit (making the water you wet it with
as hot as possible helps). You should be able to just wipe it off, if you let
it sit about 30 minutes. You may need to do it more than once if the stuff is
really crusted on. This also works well on barbeque grills and oven spills.

Lee Katman == Thirteen/WNET == New York, NY

=Do not= use REPLY or ANSWERBACK, I can not receive mail in that fashion.
Please send all mail to
INTERNET katman.wnets385%wnet_6790753 at mcimail.com
OR
MCIMAIL EMS: wnet 6790753  MBX: katman.wnets385



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Date: 6 Jan 92 09:48:14 U
From: "Rad Equipment" <rad_equipment at rad-mac1.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Oxygen and hot wort

Subject:  Oxygen and hot wort                   Time:9:35 AM     Date:1/6/92
In HBD 794, Jay Hersh mentions:

>...many European Breweries, notably Pilsener Urquell among them,
>use a system where the sweet wort that goes from the mash tun
>into the boiling tank is drained from the mash tun via a number
>of spigots.

This arrangement of spigots is called a "grant".  Anchor uses one in their
system.  I once inquired as to the reason for this step in the brewing and was
told by the brewer on duty (Mike Lee, if I remember correctly) that it was
"traditional, it came with the brewery" and he knew of no specific advantage to
it.  Nor was he aware of any problem with oxidation.  He also told me it could
be by-passed and was when they made Old Foghorn.  I'll be over there later this
week and ask again.

RW...

      Russ Wigglesworth              CI$:      72300,61
|~~|  UCSF Medical Center            Internet: Rad Equipment at RadMac1.ucsf.edu
|HB|\ Dept. of Radiology, Rm. C-324  Voice:    415-476-3668 / 474-8126 (H)
|__|/ San Francisco, CA 94143-0628


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Date: 6 Jan 1992 13:39:31 -0500
From: Chris McDermott <mcdermott at draper.com>
Subject: RE- MESS> Better living thr

 RE: MESS> Better living through chemistry
>Date:         Fri, 03 Jan 92 11:49:56 CST
>From: DAVE <C05705DA at WUVMD.Wustl.Edu>
>Subject:      MESS
>
>BEING THAT I AM A NEW HOMEBREWING APPRENTICE, I HAVE ENCOUNTERED A PROBLEM
>THAT HAS ME FLAT OUT STUMPED.  I HAD THE MISFORTUNE OF A BOIL-OVER WHEN I
>WAS DESTRACTED FOR A FEW SECONDS.  NOW, I HAVE THIS NICE AND UGLY BLACK MESS
>ON MY STOVE THAT I CANNOT GET OFF.  DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY HELPFUL SUGGESTIONS
>OTHER THAN BUYING A NEW STOVE?  MY WIFE *REALLY* WANTS TO KNOW.

Try using "Fantastic" cleaner.  In my experience, that stuff will take off
almost anything.  Just spray copious amounts onto the stove top and leave it
for 
a while (leave the room the stuff smells bad.)  Come back, spray on a bit more
and apply a little elbow grease with one of those plastic scrub pads.  If this
fails, you have no choice:  keep the stove and buy a new wife.

 Chris McDermott, [homebrew, not just for breakfast anymore]
 <mcdermott at draper.com>


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Date: 6 Jan 1992 14:21:49 -0500
From: Chris McDermott <mcdermott at draper.com>
Subject: Is boiling (water) really n

 Is boiling (water) really necessary?
In HbD#795 (Subject: Re: oxidation) Al Korz <korz at ihlpl.att.com> implies that 
any cold water that is to be combined with bitter wort in the fermenter should
be boiled.  Is this really necessary, or will plain old tap water do?

I can think of only a couple reasons why it would be a must.

1 - Your water is from a shallow well and rich in microflora.  In this case I
wouldn't even want to drink it, never mind brew with it.  In this case boiling
has an obvious advantage.

2 - Your water is high in temporary hardness.  Boiling the water would remove
some of the minerals that might give your brew an off-flavor.

3 - Your water is chlorinated or flourinated beyond an accepteble level
(whatever that may be.)  In this case boiling would drive off these ions.

Now if your water does not fall into one of these three catagoies, I would say 
that boiling is a waste of time and energy.  Please let me know if anyone has
an other viewpoint.  (like  nobody does?, Right!;-)

 Chris McDermott, [homebrew, not just for breakfast anymore]
 <mcdermott at draper.com>


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Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1992 14:48 EDT
From: Kieran O'Connor <OCONNOR%SNYCORVA.bitnet at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Hunter Monitors

I was looking at a friend's Hunter Energy Monitor and at an ad in
Zymurgy.  It seems they only go to 40 degrees f.  How do you do
efficient lagering--say around 32 degrees f?

Does anyone know of a monitor out there that goes lower?

Kieran O;Connor

oconnor at snycorva.bitnet

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Date: Mon, 6 Jan 92 14:25:01 cdt
From: "Knight,Jonathan" <KNIGHTJ%GRIN1.bitnet at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: an in-cider's view


Many thanks to those who responded to me via e-mail and in "print" about my
problem with off-flavor.  I have concluded that the cideriness of my beer is
due to the fact that, having been too lazy/broke to pick up a carboy for
secondary fermentation, I've been single-stage brewing in my beginner's
bucket, and THAT's where the beer sat for a month.  (Obviously there's a
moral to be drawn here for the beginner, or maybe several)

Interestingly, enough, I finally went out and picked up a carboy just before I
sat down to read my mail.  At any rate, assuming
this is a correct analysis of my problem, it shouldn't trouble me
again since I use only  extract, and yeast hasn't been a problem for me.  And,
 I'm VERY glad to hear that the odor will probably go away after long enough
in the bottle.  See - you really shouldn't worry, right?

Jonathan

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Date: Mon, 6 Jan 92 15:51:16 EST
From: Jim Grady <jimg at hpwald.wal.hp.com>
Subject: More International Supplier Questions


In HBD #795 Ken Key asks if anyone knows how a brewer in Sweden can get
supplies.  Unfortunately, I don't have the answer.  Instead, I have a
German friend who has shown a little interest in homebrewing but does
not know how he would continue the hobby when he moves back to Germany
(probably later this year).  Does anybody have any info on this?  He
will be in Baden-Wuerttenburg (near Stuttgart).  I thought I had seen
at least one person mention that he had brewed while living in Germany.
Thanks!
- --
Jim Grady			  |
Internet: jimg at hpwala.wal.hp.com  | "Better thin beer than an empty jug"
Phone: (617) 290-3409		  |			- Danish Proverb

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Date: Mon, 6 Jan 92 14:57:56 EST
From: wbt at cbema.att.com
Subject: Re: altbier

>     We may have to finish it off with some champagne yeast.  It's probably
>     worth trying, since the beer is still very sweet but has a good taste.

I can't see that yeast nutrient, as Ken suggested, could do anything for
this all-malt brew.  

I observe that this same thing happened when we brewed the hi-test
Christmas ale at Ken's.  That started at 1.090 or 1.080, I forget, but is
the closest thing to this batch at 1.078.  Perhaps this slow fermentation
is simply a characteristic of high-gravity ales.

Options:

1) We could throw in some yeast nutrient.  Can't hurt.

2) We could pitch some liquid yeast; Wyeast 1007 German ale, which has 
	proven itself up to the high-gravity Christmas ale.  Perhaps the
 	dry yeasts aren't sufficiently alcohol-tolerant.
	
3) We could do nothing for a couple of weeks and see if the gravity
changes.

4) We could rouse the yeast cake.  I'm dubious, because this risks
infection and oxidation, plus there's not that much cake to rouse.

I suggest #3.  It's the easiest.

 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker       AT&T Network Systems - Columbus            cbema!wbt
Quality Engineer      Network Wireless Systems       wbt at cbnews.att.com





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Date: Mon, 06 Jan 92 12:55:16 PST
From: larryba at microsoft.com
Subject: Re: MESS

Try oven Cleaner (lye) to soften up those boil over messes.  I thought
I had trashed my SS stove top, but a half hour soak under Easy Off and then
scrubbing with a copper scrub pad made it look pretty much like new.

The longer the soak, the easier the scrubbing.



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Date: Mon, 06 Jan 92 13:14:35 PST
From: larryba at microsoft.com
Subject: Re: Coop Flaked Grains

Glenn Tinseth:

Yes, Health food and coop "flaked" grains are pre-cooked.
The rollers are HOT and cook the grain as it squishes it.

I stopped paying $1.55/lb for flaked barley, wheat and oats at
the home brew store and now pay $.40-$.75/lb at my local coop.
Sometimes I just cook the grains alone for my breakfast, although
I would prefer to drink them in a special breakfast bock... :-)

        - Larry Barello



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Date: Mon, 06 Jan 92 13:20:57 PST
From: larryba at microsoft.com
Subject: Randy at rdr.com: Misc. questions

I, too, was unable to send this directly to Randy at rdr.com

- -----

Modern american 2 row is almost equivilent to traditional 6-row in
enzymatic power.

Most american lager malts are fully modified.  English malts are
over-modified.  Continental malts, i belive, are under modified.  The
protein rest is needed mainly for the latter.  I do protein rests
with Klages mainly as a sort of dough-in.  I like seeing 15 min conversion
when I step to 155.  If you are adding a lot of unmalted barley or oats
(for a stout) then a protein rest might be needed.  I have made perfectly
fine stouts w/o the protein rest and they cleared just fine.

Conversion rates are dependent upon temp and calcium/pH.  Appearently
you can fiddle with these variables to get differing rates of extract
and various qualities of the beer.  High efficiency doesn't alway equate
to high quality.  I usually go for efficiency.  In short, about a gram
of gypsum/gal of water (assuming you carbonate levels are low) should
make for rip-snorting conversions.  I believe a tbls is about 5 grams.

Rice syrup would be the converted rice (starch -> sugar).  Since you
can expect to get around .030 pt/lb/gal from flaked rice and around
 .040pt/lb/gal from syrup, i would guess that 10-11oz of syrup would
be equivilent to 14oz of flakes.  Cooked, mushed rice added to the mash
would be equivalent to using flaked rice.  Flaked anything is pre-cooked
by passing the grain through heated rollers. You need to pre-cook it to
gelatinze the starch (make it soluble in water).  Malted grain is a
little different in that the growing plant releases enzymes that break
down the kernel structures and release the starch.

I was pretty nervous when I did my first all grain beer.  Don't.  Things
are much more flexible than most authors will imply.  You may not get
the exact same beer they did, but you will still be pleased with your
results.

Oh, use iodine.  Why piss away an extra hour if everything is done in 20
minutes?  Do the starch test just after the step to see what a positive
reaction looks like.  After conversion there should be little or no
color change (no black granules).  You might get a few if you let it
sit around - that is the iodine reacting with the cellulose particles
from the husks.  An hour at 155 is roughly 2x overkill in my experience
if you have sufficient calcium (above).  Another test is to simply taste
your wort every 10 minutes or so.  When it is very sweet and smooth, you
are done.

Cheers!


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Date: Mon, 6 Jan 92 15:07 CST
From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
Subject: Re: Fermentation and surface area

Dan writes:
>A few issues ago, Chris Shenton wondered why a brew in a full 5 gallon 
>carboy fermented at a different rate than one in a not-full 7 gallon one.
>
>I recall George Fix mentioning, maybe a month or so ago, that a study done 
>in the late 1940's showed that surface area bore a significant, (I think it 
>was significant), relationship to fermentation rate and quality.  I seem to 
>remember he said th at a larger surface area, up to a point, was a good 
>thing.  This would imply that a carboy that is not filled beyone the point 
>where the neck begins to narrow would produce a better quality 
>fermentation.

Could it be the height-to-cross-sectional area aspect ratio and not
necessarily the surface area?  Maybe it has something to do with the depth
of the fermenting wort?  The extreme example of this is Samuel Smith's Old
Tadcaster Brewery, which uses very squat, long and wide fermenters
made from slate.  They use open fermentation.  I've read that this
configuration is used to create a large amount of diacetyl, which is what
they want.  However, I don't think the diacetyl production is an issue here.

>George, could you comment on this?

Yes.  George wrote:
>   1.Geometry- In the late 1940's deClerck studied fermenter shapes and
>concluded (for a long list of reasons) that it is desirable that the
>surface area of the fermenting wort be sufficiently large compared to its
>depth. 

What are some of the "long list of reasons" that deClerck suggests
are most important, George?   Where can I get a copy of deClerck's
book?  I've read its out of print.

>If it is true that a not-full carboy produces better fermentation, then 
>those who believe in the blowoff method are faced with some dilemas.

Having been a long-standing proponent of the blow-off method, I obviously
have a vested interest in deClerck's findings and Dan's suggestion of a
dilema.  On the other hand, I'm very happy with the flavor of my beers and
their fermentation times are reasonable, so why worry?  I don't use a
starter for my Wyeast, get active fermentation in 12 to 36 hours, depending
on the yeast type, and have not had an infection in over four years (some
beers sitting in the fridge, on-tap for over 9 months - no problem).  The
last infection I had, I could safely attribute to the dry yeast I used back
then.  My challenge still stands: if you think blow-off is a waste, I
dare you to drink a glass of blow-off.  I hope this doesn't sound too
antagonistic.  I don't mean it to.  It's a friendly challenge and I'm
always open to be proved wrong, as long as I learn something in the process.
Comments?

Al.

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Date: Mon, 6 Jan 92 16:36:14 -0500
From: Alan Mayman <maymanal at scvoting.fvo.osd.mil>
Subject: racking

Greetings,
 
I am new to brewing and could use some guidance regarding racking.  I have read two books so far to help me in my extract endevours.  Millers is relatively rack-happy compared to Papazians (those are the two big two books in my library).

Specifically, how important is it to rack your beer off the trub during primary fermentation as advocated by miller? what are the dangers besides infection?

When exactly should you rack to a secondary fermenter and why?

          Thanks,
 
             -Alan

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Date: Mon, 6 Jan 92 15:24 CST
From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
Subject: Casks

A while back, someone (sorry) asked about what kind of cask they should
buy: plain, charred or paraffin-coated.  Yesterday, while studying for
the BJCP exam next Sunday, I ran across what the Prazdroj Brewery uses
to make Pilsner Urquell.  According to Jackson in "The New World Guide
to Beer," they use "pitch-coated oak fermentors" which are periodically
sent back to the coopers for re-pitching when it becomes necessary.
There's a bit more detail, but this is all I can remember now.  Jackson's
Beer Hunter video shows the coopers at work.  I don't believe the voice-over
gave any detail in the video, or recall how much could be learned from
watching the coopers, but I wouldn't completely rule it out.

Now, what can we learn from this?  Apparently, the oak does not make
significant contact with the Pilsner Urquell, so all of you adding
oak chips to your Pils, may want to reconsider.  Pitch-coated was not
one of your options, but you may be able, with sufficient research (call
some coopers), to coat the casks yourself.

Al.

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Date: Mon, 6 Jan 92 16:09 CST
From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
Subject: Re: Mashing questions/answers

Josh writes:
>> 1) In Line's book, his procedure for a step mash suggests doing the
>> "protein rest" or first stage at 55C (131F), but Papaizan suggests
>> 50C (122F).  Who's right? Does it really matter?
>
>Miller says that a 131 F rest will tend to produce more protease enzymes, so
>that your larger protien molecules get broken into smaller ones.  Result?
>Less chill haze, more mouth-feel and head retention.  He also says that he
>never did a side-by-side 122/131 comparison, so he's not sure if the
>homebrewer would notice the difference.  My first batch was an altbier with
>german 2-row, and I used 131 F.  I also used Irish Moss, and the beer came out
>quite clear.

Just one correction.  It's incorrect to say "tend to produce more
protease enzymes."  All the enzymes you will ever get to use are in the
grain when you begin.  You can add enzymes you puchase separately.  I'm
sure what you meant was something on the order of "activate."

According to Papazian's New CJoHB, at temperatures ideally between 113F
and 122F, one type of proteolytic enzyme cuts long proteins in to amino
acids, which can subsequently be used by your yeast.  Between 122F and
140F, other proteolytic enzymes break the long proteins into shorter
proteins (I'm borrowing from Miller on this) which contribute, as Josh
said, to mouth-feel and head-retention. If you leave the long proteins
around, that will contribute to chill haze, which is partly why you would
like to cut them up.

>> 2) The recipe I'm using from Line's book (for a light pilsner, a
>> Heinekin clone), he calls for 5.5 lbs of "lager malt".  What kind of
>> malt is this? 2-row or 6-row?  Unmodified, modified, or highly
>> modified?
>
>Lager malt is a color definition only.  Line was British, and in both the UK
>and Germany they only have 2-row, as, I believe, 6-row is a north american
>species.  All brewing malt should be highly modified.  Undermodified malt is
>usually a mistake.  You can tell by chewing a grain.  The test (according to
>Miller is "chewy/steely".  Chewy, edible malt is well modified. Undermodified
>will chew like gravel.  The "base" malts you'll use will usually be either
>"lager" malt or "pale" malt.  Use the pale for english style single temp
>mashes, lager for everything else.

I disagree again.  Brewing malt can be 2-row or 6-row AND highly-modified
or under-modified.  Lager malt is less-modified than British pale malt.
Undermodified malt has more starch available for conversion to sugars
and more complex (long) proteins, but less amino acids.  It requires a
protein rest.  Fully-modified malt, aka, British pale malt, has less
starch available for conversion to sugars, less complex proteins and
more amino acids.  With pale malt, you can skip the protein rest and
do a simple infusion mash.

In the rest of Josh's post, I concur, but also cannot provide a documented
conversion rate from "flaked rice" to "gelatinized white rice."  Papazian,
however says that flaked rice is simply "moistened" and "passed through
rollers" which gelatinizes them.  Later, he says that white rice needs to
be cooked at least 30 minutes to gelatinize.  Based on this, I would
intuatively say that you should substitute 1:1 dry white rice to flaked
rice and then make sure to gelatinize it before adding to the mash.

Al.

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Date: Mon, 6 Jan 92 16:35 CST
From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
Subject: Re: Pitching at high krauesen

Bryan writes:
>Wort at high krausen has a lot of dissolved CO2 in it. So shaking it to
>get the slurry off the bottom when pitching is not a very good idea.

I have to agree, but not for the reason you state, Bryan.  The amount of
dissolved CO2 in wort at high krauesen is not very great, not compared
to finished beer, at least.  But dissolved CO2 really is immaterial
when pitching your starter.  The reason I feel that you shouldn't shake
your starter (if it's really at high krauesen) is because the slurry is
trub (hot break, cold break and dead yeast).  If you've waited too long
and high krauesen is over, then your slurry contains some dormant yeast
but intuatively, I feel not enough to bother with -- again don't shake.
If you've waited *way* too long, and your starter has cleared, then
shake it up, and pour it into a new starter.  At high krausen, there's
nothing you really want in the slurry -- what you want is either on
top or in suspension.
Al.

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Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1992 14:59 PDT
From: Bob Jones <BJONES at NOVA.llnl.gov>
Subject: misc comments

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Following is summited by Micah Millspaw.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

        I would like to thank Bob Jones for posting the recipe for his
holiday ale. I have drank several bottles of the stuff and it is
great! There is one problem, Bob's water is very, very soft and if
your brewing water has even moderate calcium hardness you should back
off on the amount of hops that you use. nuff said

        On the subject of bottle fillers. It has been my experience
over many years of homebrewing that what works best is
counter-pressure bottle filling from kegs. The C-P fillers make it
possible to purge the empty bottle of normal atmosphere and pressure
it with either C02 or nitrogen. Doing this can eliminate a lot of
worry about oxydation. There are several adds in zymurgy's classifieds
for counter-pressure bottle fillers at reasonable prices. I have one
of the HIGH TECH bottlers it cost 49.95 and is by far the cleanest
and easiest to use C-P filler I've seen.

        I am in the process of converting my draft beer system at home
to nitrogen \CO2 from straight CO2. The mix is 85/15 this is a
standard gas mix available from welding supply places. The advantage
in this is the your beer will not absorb the nitrogen as it would the
CO2 possibly altering the mouthfeel and flavour\bouquet profile of
your beer.

        I have come up with a device that will make a soda keg beheive
like the new guiness cans. It is very simple ,easy to install and
remove and you can make it your self. Cost is about 3-5 bucks worth
of SS and 15 minutes on a lathe (or bribe a machinist, they usually
take beer). If anyone is interested Email Bob Jones and I will give
him a DXF file with a nice drawing on it. Most any CAD system should
be able decipher the DXF for you. Plus they are easy to transmit (I
think?).

	A bit of info for those of you who subscribe to Zymurgy mag.
and do not also recieve the Beverage People news from GFSR. It seems
that the special issue on beer styles has some errors(besides Paddy
Giffens picture). The munich helles article contains some gross mis-
information. Byron Burch claims to have written and submitted it as a
sort of joke, after mailing it in he says that he called the AHA editor
to inform them of the nature of the article in question. But many months
later it appeared in the '91 special issue, errors and all, and the best
part is the author credited is CP. So read this article about helles
for its humorous value and not its brewing advice.


                                        Micah Millspaw
                                brewer at large          12\26\91
 

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Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1992 14:59 PDT
From: Bob Jones <BJONES at NOVA.llnl.gov>
Subject: Sour Mashing

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Submitted by Micah Millspaw
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

        SOUR MASH
        I've had great success with sour mash beers. I have used
several different yeasts with the sour mash including Chico ale
yeast, Chimay reculture, and S. Delbruki they all worked great. I
haven't tried a lager yeast yet but am planning to make one. So as to
be useful I'll describe my mashing (sour) technique.

        First I'll explain, I do my sour mashes as two separate
mashes, one soured and one straight. The sour mash is 80% wheat the
rest 2-row klages. This is mashed in with 32 oz. water per pound of
grain, strike temp. is 180F this should be stable at 158-160F. I do
this part of the mash in a picnic cooler with some duct tape around
the lid to minimize heat loss. I start the mash the evening of the day
before I intend to brew. The mash time is usually 12 to 14 hours.
        On brew day I do a normal straight infusion mash with a high
percentage of 2-row klages usually a one hour mash.
        And now to the good part! Go, and open the lid of the cooler
that has the 14 hour old mash in it. If the smell makes you want to
vomit, it is done and its OK (the colour may be a little grey too).
Take the soured mash and the straight mash and mix them together in
your lauter vessel. Then do a mash out at 170F and hold it for 15 min.
Sparge your brew length, then boil down to size and gravity desired.
Hop as you wish. If you ferment in clear glass the wort may appear
somewhat grey in colour, this will clear by itself. I've made high,
medium, and low gravity beers with method and they have all turned out
pale, clear and very tasty. The flavour is difficult to describe but
as digusting as the process is the resulting beer taste is well worth
it.

        Note: I also have done a alcohol removed sour mash spiced with
coriander and CFJ90 hops as my contribution to responsable yet
flavourful drinking. If anyone wants the recipe let me know.

 AND SOUR MASHING IS NOT A PART OF LAMBIC BREWING (to avoid confusion)


                                                Micah Millspaw
                                        BREWER AT LARGE      12\27\91


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Date: Mon, 6 Jan 92 15:40:48 PST
From: Tom Bower <bower at hprnlme1.rose.hp.com>
Subject: Mash/Lauter Tun Construction

Being more of an ale than a lager fan, and wishing to enter the ranks of
all-grain homebrewers, I've been trying to accumulate the necessary equip-
ment to do single-temperature infusion mashes (and sparges) in an insulated
container.

I'd like to hear from the net on mash/lauter tun construction.  Assuming
some kind of picnic/water cooler to be adapted for this use, I've got some
questions:

  +Which shape works better (and why?) - Cylindrical (water jug) or rectan-
   gular?  What size works well assuming perhaps some barleywines as worst-
   case mash quantities, 5-gallon recipes in general?  Any other good things
   to use besides insulated ice chests & water coolers?

  +What is the ideal arrangement for straining out the runnings?  I've heard
   people describe slotted copper tubing, plastic bucket-bottoms with holes
   drilled or slots melted through with a hot knife, with or without the
   use of grain bags.  If I could construct the ideal false bottom, what
   would the average size and geometry of the openings be, and what % of
   open area overall would there be?  I'm thinking of getting some stainless
   steel screen/mesh.  What are the consequences of the openings being too
   small?  Too large?  Too infrequent?  How about the amount of space under
   the false bottom?  Is there a type of construction that makes a grain
   bag unnecessary, or would it just be easier to make an over-permeable 
   false bottom and rely on the grain bag for the straining effect?

What say ye?  Feel free to reply here or via e-mail, if there's interest I
will summarize & post.

Thomas G. Bower          (bower at hprnd.rose.hp.com)          Roseville, CA 

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Date:    Mon, 06 Jan 92 20:34:38 EST
From: Jim White <JWHITE at maine.maine.edu>
Subject: Spargin blues......

Awhile ago I surveyed the all-grain brewers. The purpose of this survey was to
determine why 'you brew the way you brew'. The results, (posted), ran the
gamut from mysticism to economic necessity. Agreement was nearly unanimous,
however, that the final brew tasted better. Thus I was motivated to invest
in the equipment and give it a try.

After about 7 batches, a few observations.....

I like it. It's fun. I think the beer is tastier. I doubt I'll go back.
I bought 55 lbs. of Munton and Fison 2-row pale for $.65/lb. For less than
$10.00 one can make 5 gals of top quality all malt brew. Neat !

I try and do things simple. I use a single temp infusion mash with a cooler.
I boil in a 33 qt porcelain on junk metal boiler. Wort chiller is a coil of
1/4 i.d. copper tubing inside my cooler filled with snow (when available).

Things usually go fine, with one possible exception....... Yeah you guessed...
Sparging is the downside of all-grain brewing. I can usually get a decently
clear flow, and decent extract rate, but it's a pain, and this leads to a
question.

Why not just drain the sweet liquid from the mashing vessel, through a
couple layers of chessecloth, and into the boiler..... once. No re-cycling!
Then run the necessary amount of 170-180 F water through the same grain bed
and cheesecloth, (again just once), to make 6 gals.... and be done with it.
It'd take minutes, rather then 1-2 hours.

I'll probably try this anyway in my next batch (call it an experiment) but I'd
be truly interested in the opinion of the HBD'rs. Has anyone tried this, or
something similar? Would you expect the grain bed to be a better filter bed?
Would you expect the extract rate to suffer?

I have tried both a 'double bucket' and a grain bag approach to sparging. I
like the grain bag better, but mine (I guess) is too fine, and get's clogged.
I find the double bucket too time consuming and I don't like the extra items
to clean. Am still waiting for a better sparging system .......

Jim White

The new auxiliary Wort chiller arrived on New Year's Day, but so far.... it's
bust. When I needed it cold, it was about 40 F and raining.

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Date: Mon,  6 Jan 92 20:05:14 -0600 (CST)
From: Brian Capouch <brianc at zeta.saintjoe.EDU>
Subject: Temperature Calculations

Excerpts from homebrew: 6-Jan-92 Homebrew Digest #795 (Janua.. Verify a.
b. sending at hpf (44434)

> >   1) Strike dry grain with enough 160F water to bring mash to 153F.
> >       Stir and let rest until conversion.
> > 

> That will take 13 lbs of water (over a gallon and a half) for each 
> pound of grain.  Here's the algebra.

> Let g be pounds of grain at 60F
> Let w be pounds of water at 160F

> 	60g + 160w = (g + w) * 153
> 	60g + 160w = 153g + 153w
> 	        7w = 93g
> 		 w = 93/7 g  ie. about 13 1/2 pounds


John, does this set of equations take into account the difference in
specific heat between the two substances, or would that be significant? 
Most texts I've seen (particularly Noonan) seem to indicate that the
malt has a higher specific heat than the water, which (and I'm sure the
physics-prone amongst us will let me know) would mean that another
coefficient has to be added in, one that I think would result in an even
higher weight of water having to be added. . . . .

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Date: Mon, 6 Jan 92 22:36:44 -0700
From: Jon Binkley <binkley at beagle.Colorado.EDU>
Subject: All Grain Weizen


I'd like to try to brew a 50-60% wheat beer.  A while back
I remember someone posted suggestions for dealing with the
problems associated with mashing such high wheat porportions.
Could this kind soul, or anyone else who has tried it, please
email or post a synopsis of your wisdom?

Many thanks,
Jon Binkley
binkley at boulder.colorado.edu


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #796, 01/07/92