FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Re: Help a first batch? (Aereation & Straining the Wort) (wegeng.henr801c)
  New Belgium Brewery, Ft. Collins, CO (Aaron Birenboim)
  Mistletoe (Pierre Charles Jelenc)
  Bottles (dbreiden)
  Pellets used by the Pros; Dry Hop Timing (Norm Pyle)
  It IS a Monstrocity!! (ZLPAJGN)
  re: grabbing hops with a strainer (mcnally)
  sparging wort?!? (mcnally)
  sparge temp (sherwood)
  when to dry hop (mcnally)
  When to dry hop and why (David Resch)
  sparge temperature (mcnally)
  Dryhopping (korz)
  More dryhopping (korz)
  *PALE* ale (korz)
  NA Beer Info Needed ("John Cotterill")
  recipe for trappist-style beer (Tony Babinec)
  RE: Volunteers for 1st round AHA .... (sheri)
  When to dry hop? (Chris Shenton)
  Seeking Hensler and Richman (botteron)
  confusing statement on ale vs. lager (Jay Hersh)
  Sparging, Mashing (Jack Schmidling)
  sparge water temp., wyeast, and STUFF (STROUD)
  VMS decompression of Z files--help! (Frank Tutzauer)
  a comment (Jay Hersh)
  Shipping hombrew (?) (Tim Rushing)
  Distilling (tim)
  Sanitizer lifetime (Jared Rhine)
  Michigan Brewpub Legislation (joshua.grosse)
  JOINING (JIM MCNUTT)
  JOINING (JIM MCNUTT)
  Salvaging bad beer (Gene Schultz)
  Growing Hops (mccamljv)
  files in recipe-book archive at mthvax.cs.miami.edu ("a.e.mossberg")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 	Thu, 19 Mar 1992 06:00:56 PST
From: wegeng.henr801c at xerox.com
Subject: Re: Help a first batch? (Aereation & Straining the Wort)

Jeff Mizener writes:
>The question of straining the boil into the fermenter seems to be a bit of a
sticky one.
>My last batch was two-stage and both in carboys.  I strained the boil through
a big
>funnel with a built-in strainer (very fine) into the carboy.  What a pain.  I
ended
>up cleaning the strainer after each small ladle full.

I`ve had good luck straining wort while it`s still in the brewpot.  I use a
medium size food strainer, which has about an eight inch handle.  I simply run
it back and forth through the wort, dumping it out as necessary.  I have found
that I can remove most of the hops/whatever in a couple minutes.  Then I
continue boiling the wort for a few more minutes to kill any beasties that may
have been on the strainer.

/Don
wegeng.henr801c at xerox.com

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Date: Thu, 19 Mar 92 08:07:12 MST
From: abirenbo at rigel.hac.com (Aaron Birenboim)
Subject: New Belgium Brewery, Ft. Collins, CO

  On Tuesday, march 17 th meeting of the Unfermentables brewing
club had a speaker.  Unfortuntely, I do not remember his last name,
because he was referred to as "Jeff" ...  operator of the New
Belgium Brewery, in Ft. Collins CO.  He makes several Belgian
style ales in his basement, and sells them in liter bottles
at several Ft. Collins and Boulder liquor stores.

   Jeff's beers all use NO bacteria, but he uses several different
yeast strains.....  and when I say DIFFERENT, i mean it.  Real
Belgian style yeasts.  Very complex flavors... perhaps even "spicy".

  His biggest seller is "Fat Tire Ale".  Basicly this is similar
to your usual amber-ale wort, all malt, fermented with his pure,
single strain yeast.  It has a bit of the belgian character,
but is mild and smoother.  Most acceptable to the usual american
pallate.  I noted a vinegar aroma, but no noticible vinegar
flavor.  This beer was dry-hopped with Kent and Williamette.

  My favorite was his cherry ale.  This wort seemed pretty much
like Fat Tire, but with almost no hop character.  He mentioned
the use of "old, cheesy, hops".  However, i do not think he
actually ages them.  He might just expose them to air for as long as 
he can, or possible "age" them in the oven, a la Martin Lohdal.
(just wanted to give martin a little fame...  he's helped me a lot
over e-mail.)  He uses 1 pound of cherries/gallon in the secondary.
Since he could not get the european style black cherries, he uses
sweet pie cherries, frozen, from a colorado orchard.  The same
yeast as fat tire ale was used.

  His trappist ale had a "hairspray" aroma, but the flavor was
quite a bit smoother than the arome suggests.  It may be unfair
for me to judge this beer, since i do not like the spicy, complex,
trapppists.  This beer is a bit stronger, going from 1.060
to 1.012.  It is fermented form a single pure strain.  It
uses the "secret" trappist ingredient, candy sugar.  He
uses demura or turbinado for "candy sugar".  I have seen
both of these on the shelves of Cub and/or King Soopers
groceries in Denver.

  In his trippel he uses multiple yeast strains.  For consistency,
he splits the batch for fermentation, and blends at bottling.
Trippel is uisually quite pale, and might have wheat.  Both
his trippel and the "Brassiere Dupont" trippel that i have had
seemed to have wheat.  I think by this time i wqas getting
a bit loopy, because i have almost no notes on his trippel ;-)
I prefered his trippel to the dupont a friend of mine brought
from germany, since his was smoother.

  His beer is priced competituvely with other u-breweries,
and a great bargain for that price.  He plans to remain small
so he continue brewing the belgian styles he loves, which
have a limited potential market.  He has almost never made
any sales effort....  All but 2 of the liquor stores he supplies
approached him.  However, he may leave the basement soon.

  Apperently, the only major obsticle for him to go commercial
was an odd law on in-home businesses.  He had no problem
meeting zoning and health ordinances for an in-home operation.
However, there was a specific clause which basicly said...
"except for breweries.  no home breweries."  He somehow
went to D.C. and the like to get this changed or something.
I never really understood how hw got around that obsticle.
He said that the health inspector said that he had done everything
right, so he obdviously knew the laws, so why did he go and
do this in his basement?  This occured AFTER the initial
investment in SS equipment.

  It was a very enjoyable talk that lasted about 90 min.
Unfortunately it was getting late, so i missed the bock tasting.
dang.

         aaron


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Date: Thu, 19 Mar 92 10:18:17 EST
From: Pierre Charles Jelenc <pcj1 at cunixf.cc.columbia.edu>
Subject: Mistletoe

Jay Allen asked about mistletoe brewing in HBD 846.

All species of  mistletoe are _poisonous_  (the american  Phoradendron
sp. as well  as the  european  Viscum  sp.). They  contain vasopressor
amines such as tyramine and phenylethylamine, and  have been  known to
kill animals as large as cows.

Furthermore, the major use of mistletoe (besides kissing under it) is
to manufacture birdlime, the sticky goo use to catch birds by gluing
them to a branch. Would you want glue beer?

Pierre


Pierre Jelenc                        pcj1 at cunixf.cc.columbia.edu
Columbia University

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Date: Thu, 19 Mar 92 11:01:47 -0500
From: dbreiden at mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Subject: Bottles


>From: trwagner at unixpop.ucs.indiana.edu

>        I have a question that is burning....

>        I have some srew on bottles.  A few are the Ballantine Pale Ale
>bottles.  Can I use these to bottle when I brew my first batch?  Or is
>bottling screw on bottles very iffy?  Has anyone done this successfully??

>Ted

A fair question.  A common response is "no no," usually followed by:
"And never use nonreturnable bottles 'cause they're not strong enough."

I took the liberty long ago of disregarding the second piece of advice.
I'd guess that the majority of the bottles I use are nonreturnables--the
glass is visibly thinner than the glass which returnable longneck bottles
us.

As for screw tops, I bottle 2 or 3 screw top bottles several batches ago.
I wanted to see how it would work.  I used good old fashioned crown caps
and my double handle capper and a little extra care.  I had no problems.
I'll grant that my sample size was small, but I can't come up with a logical
explanation of whjy it wouldn't work IF you don't break the bottle while 
capping--but that's a concern no matter what sort of bottle you use.

Back to the nonreturnable bottle issue: Over in r.c.b., I asked for 
stories from people who've had problems using nonreturnable bottles.
No one has given me any horror stories yet.  Let's just think about it for 
a minute: beer, soda pop, champagne--they're all carbonated, so the bottles
in which they are sold are meant to handle carbonated beverages.  Now,
if one takes reasonable care in brewing, the beverage one creates is not
going to be significantly more fizzy than what one buys in a store.  Unless
the glass is weakened by sitting around with commercial beer in it, there
is no porblem with using the bottle for homebrew.  If you're prone to
glass grenades, I sugggest you change your brewing practices.  If you are
worried that a batch may go explosive without warning, I see no need to 
fear nonreturnable bottles more than returnables.

The only reason I bring all this up is that I've seen complaints that it's
getting harder and harder to find returnables, and/or people have a lot
of old bottles laying around from those 6-packs of Bass or Pete's or whatever
and they'd like to put the bottles to use.

Have at it!

- --Danny

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Date: Thu, 19 Mar 92 09:19:33 MST
From: pyle at intellistor.com (Norm Pyle)
Subject: Pellets used by the Pros; Dry Hop Timing

volkerdi at MHD1.moorhead.msus.edu (volkerding patrick) writes:

>Oh, Kelly also mentioned to me that they use only pellet hops at the Schell
brewery. One more hint for those of you trying to brew something
similar.

I've noticed only pellet hops in all of the brewpubs I've visited (roughly 7
in Colorado).  I figured they do this for consistency, so they can get the
same hops all year round.  Anyone else know more?

jim at grunt.asrc.albany.edu (Jim Schlemmer) writes:

>My question, however, is not with the method of introduction but with the
timing.  I just made a batch last night and put an ounce of cascades in a
hop bag and stuffed it into the carboy.  Now I read that Dave waits until
he racks to secondary and I remember that I've heard that before.  Can someone
tell me why?  Miller has about a paragraph on dry hopping and I don't recall

It is my understanding that you should wait until secondary fermentation for
two reasons:  1) The alcohol content is higher and thus prevents any
bacteria (that are riding on the dry hops) from running away, and 2) at least
with loose hops, it keeps them from floating on top of the foam and wasting
their time.  I'm planning on dry hopping my current "Buy American Ale"
tonight or tomorrow (when the Krauesen falls) in this manner.  I just thought
of another reason:  The shorter you are (in time) from dry hopping to
drinking the brew, the more of that great aroma kick you're going to get...

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Date:    Thu, 19 Mar 92 10:26 CST
From: ZLPAJGN%LUCCPUA.bitnet at UICVM.UIC.EDU
Subject: It IS a Monstrocity!!

Dear Brewers

Earlier this week I posted a series of questions regarding a potentially
lethal concoction I brewed up over the weekend.  My proceedures were
VERY loosely based on Bravery's recipe for "Super Strong Ale."  Things
seemed to be going well enough: the fermentation was of such a pace
that I was positive the damn thing was about to sprout legs and walk
away!!

Today, however, things seem to have gone sour, and I choose that word
correctly!  Fermentation's all but ceased; the kreauseun (?) has fallen
and now there's an odd methane-like odor about the fermentation lock.
It's an odor not too unlike very ripe fruit... And there's precipitation
on the inside wall of the carboy (remember that this is a 2.5 gal batch
using 4 lbs extract and approx. 3 lbs sugar).

Many of you have already E-mailed me personally suggesting that I not
worry too much and realize that I am not brewing an ale per se, but a
barly wine instead.  I received further advise about aging and bottling
(that I should rack to a secondary and dilute with a few gals of boiled
water, and let stand to age for at least a few months).

The point I'm at now, however, (and I'm afraid I'm guilty of the highest
of sins -- I've surpassed worrying and have gone straight to panic!) is
to bail out completely and run away bravely!  Unless, perhaps this odor
is normal (if still offensive) and I can simply rack to a temporary
container with two gals of PRIMED water and bottle???

Thanks

John

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Date: Thu, 19 Mar 92 08:38:02 -0800
From: mcnally at wsl.dec.com
Subject: re: grabbing hops with a strainer


You might want to "sparge" your hops after scooping them out of the 
boiler.  There's probably a lot of hop goodness, as well as wort,
clinging to the leaves.

_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
Mike McNally                                           mcnally at wsl.dec.com
Digital Equipment Corporation
Western Software Lab

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Date: Thu, 19 Mar 92 08:41:53 -0800
From: mcnally at wsl.dec.com
Subject: sparging wort?!?


Your question in HBD about "sparging thick wort" makes no sense to me;
are you sure you've got your terminology straight?  Sparging refers to
the process of rinsing the mash in the lauter tun with hot water to
extract sugars still clinging to the grain husks.  A wort chiller has
nothing to do with that process.

As far as rousing yeast, I suggest stirring the wort in the fermenter
with your sanitized racking tube.  If you've got a real heavy wort,
you might even try racking it and allowing it to aerate a little.
(I've never done that; it's a twisted theory of mine I tend to explore
the next time I do a really heavy beer.)

_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
Mike McNally                                           mcnally at wsl.dec.com
Digital Equipment Corporation
Western Software Lab

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Date: Thu, 19 Mar 92 08:13:15 -0800
From: sherwood at adobe.com
Subject: sparge temp

I also have a question about sparge temp, but the opposite one.  I have my
first mash waiting patiently for me to keg it.  Okay, it was a parital mash
(2 cans Munton & Fison amber, 10 lbs barley malt, 10 gallon batch) but I
got a high specific gravity (1060) so obviously my extraction rate was good.

My question?  I sparged using 130F water directly from my water heater.  The
leftover husks were light and empty, and as I said above, I got a good
specific gravity.  I also figure that with water that cool tannin extraction
should not be a problem regardless of how long I sparge.

So why all the emphasis on 170F sparging?  So you can use maybe a gallon or
so less sparge water??  Obviously temp is important during mashing (I mashed
at 150F) but by the time you sparge the chemical reactions should be complete
and all you are doing is dissolving the malt sugar so it can be drained,
true?  And hot tap water does a very good job of this (perhaps not quite
optimal, but as I said above, I can always use an extra gallon of water and
boil it away).

So, am I missing something?

Geoff Sherwood

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Date: Thu, 19 Mar 92 08:43:47 -0800
From: mcnally at wsl.dec.com
Subject: when to dry hop


The advantage of dry-hopping in the settling tank after fermentation is
that the aromatic chemicals from the hops won't be carried off into the 
atmosphere from the CO2 that's erupting from the ferment.  See Fix.

_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
Mike McNally                                           mcnally at wsl.dec.com
Digital Equipment Corporation
Western Software Lab

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Date: Thu, 19 Mar 92 09:51:57 MST
From: resch at craycos.com (David Resch)
Subject: When to dry hop and why

Jim Schlemmer says:

>Now I read that Dave waits until he racks to secondary and I remember that 
>I've heard that before.  Can someone tell me why?  

I wait to dry hop until the secondary for several reasons, some of which may 
not be "scientifically" valid:

1) Adding them to the secondary guarantees that the beer will have a reasonable
   alcohol content and will minimize the risk of infection (however minimal to
   begin with) since I do nothing to sanitize/sterilize the hop flowers.

2) If they are added too early in the fermentation, they tend to be carried up
   onto the top of the krausen and many stick to the sides of the fermenter 
   so that the "goodies" aren't being absorbed into the beer. 

3) I have no hard evidence, but it seems that since a lot of the aromatic 
   components that we are trying to extract via dry hopping are very volatile,
   they would be "scrubbed" out by the CO2 generated during active 
   fermentation.  These aromatics would thus be carried away with the CO2 
   escaping through the fermentation lock/blowoff tube.

4) I've found through experimentation, that for the amount of dry hops that I
   add, the 1 1/2 to 2 weeks of secondary fermentation that I do seems to give
   me the desired amount of hop flavor and aroma I am seeking.

Dave Resch

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Date: Thu, 19 Mar 92 08:48:03 -0800
From: mcnally at wsl.dec.com
Subject: sparge temperature


You really want 165-170 temperatures in the lauter tun, though mostly
to ensure efficient rinsing of the sugars.  George Fix's book mentions
an experiment---intended to keep runoff pH low---that involved sparging
at just above freezing.

_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
Mike McNally                                           mcnally at wsl.dec.com
Digital Equipment Corporation
Western Software Lab

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Date: Thu, 19 Mar 92 11:28 CST
From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
Subject: Dryhopping

Jim writes:
>David Resch says:
>
>>I just toss the loose hops into the secondary fermenter (using a large funnel)
>>and then rack the beer from the primary into the secondary right onto the dry
>>hops.  I usually do this after one week of fermentation.  I let the secondary
>>fermentation/dry hop conditioning continue for another one to two weeks.
>
>This sounds like a better method if, as Dave goes on to say, the hops don't
>clog the siphon.  

I can concur with Dave that the hops don't clog the racking cane -- I have
one of those orange caps on the end.  I simply dump the hops into the
primary as soon as the kraeusen falls.  Since I've been making only ales,
and they almost always ferment-out in two weeks, I don't use a secondary.
If I was to use one (e.g. to experiment with keeping the beer off the trub
entirely), I would do just as Dave does: rack onto the hops.

Al.

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Date: Thu, 19 Mar 92 11:35 CST
From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
Subject: More dryhopping

I guess I should have read on.

Jim also writes:
>My question, however, is not with the method of introduction but with the 
>timing.  I just made a batch last night and put an ounce of cascades in a
>hop bag and stuffed it into the carboy.  Now I read that Dave waits until
>he racks to secondary and I remember that I've heard that before.  Can someone
>tell me why?  Miller has about a paragraph on dry hopping and I don't recall
>if he suggests a *time* to dry hop, but I know that he doesn't discuss the 
>relative merits of secondary vs. primary hopping.  Should I expect anything 
>bad to come of not waiting for initial fermentation to cease?  This 
>morning the wort was rolling and tossing but the hop bag was just sort of 
>floating atop the head of foam.  Should I make an effort of poking it back
>down?
>

I suggest loosing the bag.  I dryhop as soon as the kraeusen falls for the
following reasons:

1. If you dryhop while it is still blowing off or fermenting wildly,
you may a) clog the blowoff tube if you are using one, and b) scrub out
many of the aromatics you are *trying* to add!

2. If you dryhop later, I don't think there is much harm except for maybe
(and this is completely speculative on my part) getting less out of the
hops (my ales are usually done in two weeks, blowoff being the first 3 or
so).

Al.

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Date: Thu, 19 Mar 92 11:40 CST
From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
Subject: *PALE* ale

Brian--
The palest of the pale ales, IMHO, is Anchor's Liberty Ale.  I haven't
had SNPA in a while, but I don't recall it being overly pale -- if I had
to guess, I would say it was on the order of Bass in color.
Al.

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Date: Thu, 19 Mar 92 10:42:23 PST
From: "John Cotterill" <johnc at hprpcd.rose.hp.com>
Subject: NA Beer Info Needed
Full-Name: "John Cotterill"

Does anyone out there have a summary of the non alcohol beer thread from a
couple of months ago?  A friend of mine over seas wants to brew beer, but
his liver cannot tolerate much alcohol due to hepatitis.  Thanks....
John.
johnc at hprpcd.rose.hp.com

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Date: Thu, 19 Mar 92 13:20:20 CST
From: tony at spss.com (Tony Babinec)
Subject: recipe for trappist-style beer

With the availability of Wyeast "Belgian," you might want to try making
a trappist ale in the style of Chimay.  If I am remembering correctly,
Chimay Red has SG of 1.063.  Dave Line, in Brewing Beers Like Those
You Buy, and Dave Miller, in his book, give some suggestions for how
to make a trappist-style beer.  So, taking their cue, here's an all-grain
recipe.

Trappist Ale

8.5 pounds pale ale malt
1   pound mild malt (or substitute Munich)
0.5 pound crystal malt 
1 ounce black patent malt
1 pound dark brown sugar
optional:  0.5 pound honey

2 ounces Hallertauer hops at 60 minutes until end of boil
1 ounce Kent Golding hops at 60 minutes until end of boil

Wyeast Belgian ale yeast or cultured Chimay yeast

Depending on your extract efficiency, this beer might come in at SG in
mid-1060s or so.  This is not intended to be a 1.100 beer!  If you can
find it, instead of using dark brown sugar, use 1 pound raw sugar
crystals (seen at some gourmet food shops, but somewhat expensive).
Note the mixture of continental and English hops.  As the beer ought
to have some body, use a starch conversion temperature of 155-8
degrees F.

I have brewed a recipe similar to this, but used cultured Chimay
yeast, and the resulting beer came out pretty nicely.  

For a Corsendonk-like brown ale, instead of the black malt listed
above, try 3 ounces of chocolate malt.

Happy brewing!

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Date: Thu Mar 19 13:31:10 1992
From: synchro!sheri at uunet.UU.NET
Subject: RE: Volunteers for 1st round AHA ....


Just noticed that the second part of the notice was totally garbled.  
Will try again.

Judging will be Friday, April 10th at 7pm, Saturday, April 11th at 4pm
and Sunday, April 12th at 9am at the Boston Beer Co.  There may also be
and early! Saturday morning session.  Will keep you posted.  We have to
schedule judging on Saturday around brewery tours given between noon and
4pm!  Anybody who wants to judge should notify David Ruggiero, at Barley
Malt and Vine, 617-327-0089.  At least leave your name and number on the 
answereing machine.  You can also contact me, but David is preferable.
Thanks again,
Sheri


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Date: Thu, 19 Mar 92 11:23:11 PST
From: css at haze.ccsf.caltech.edu (Chris Shenton)
Subject: When to dry hop?

Jim Schlemmer <jim at grunt.asrc.albany.edu > writes about dryhopping by
putting the hops in a hop-bag or cheesecloth:

> This is what I did.  It was a little tight going through the neck of
> the carboy with an ounce of hops though.
> ...
> I just made a batch last night and put an ounce of cascades in a
> hop bag and stuffed it into the carboy.

OK, maybe I'm stupid, but if it's so tough to get the back of (dry)
hops through the neck of the carboy, how the heck to you get it out?
Especially as it will be swollen after absorbing wort?

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Date:  Thu, 19 Mar 92 16:41:31 EST
From: botteron at bu-it.BU.EDU
Subject: Seeking Hensler and Richman


Posted for Morgiana Halley:

I am in desperate straits trying to locate Carl & Debby Hensler and/or
Darryl Richman lately of the San Fernando Valley brewing community.  I
believe Darryl was once president of the Maltose Falcons.  I know he
moved to Washington State about six months ago.  Carl is a student
pilot and Debby is an academic.  They have two adult children, one of
each gender.  Carl and I have maintained an email correspondence
almost since the time I arrived in the UK.  He and Debby were going to
retrieve a household item of great sentimental value to me, but I
haven't heard whether they did or not.  The last I heard, Carl's
workplace was going to change hands or merger or something of the
sort, and I haven't been able to get a response from his e-mail
address since.  Darryl was one of Carl's best buddies, so if anyone
would know how to reach him or what happened, it would be he.

My e-mail address is eg2mh at primea.sheffield.ac.uk
My snail address is:  Morgiana P. Halley
                      c/o CECTAL
                      The University
                      Sheffield, UK
                      S10 2TN
My telephone number is: (0742) 507332 (residence, eves & weekdays)
                        (0742) 768555 ext. 6296 (messages only)

I am working on a PhD at the University of Sheffield in South
Yorkshire, England, and can't do my hunting myself.
If you have difficulty reaching me, Carol Botteron 
(botteron at bu-it.bu.edu) will undertake to forward messages.
                 Thanksabunch,
                   Morgiana (Ye Olde Batte) Halley


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Date: Thu, 19 Mar 92 17:07:12 EST
From: Jay Hersh <hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu>
Subject: confusing statement on ale vs. lager


Jack said>
 It is obvious from reading the many and varied responses to my question, that 
 the tastes are highly variable, to the point that ale can be made to taste 
 like lager and vice versa.

I think I'm missing something, please explain...

 -JaH

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Date: Thu, 19 Mar 92 13:47 CST
From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Sparging, Mashing

 
 To: Homebrew Digest
 Fm: Jack Schmidling
 
 >From: Alan Mayman <maymanal at scvoting.fvo.osd.mil>
 
 >I tried out my new wort chiller recently and was slightly bummed by how 
 thick and viscous my wort became.   How do you veterans handle sparging thick 
 wort?
 
 I think you need to post your process for review as the above indicates 
 either a lack of communicating the problem or understanding of the process.
 
 It would appear, from the above, that you are trying to chill somewhere in 
 the mashing process instead of after the boil.
 
 >Finally, I am ready for a big, all grain size brewpot (10 gal?).  I have 
 heard something about brewpots with spigots on the side.  Is there some 
 advantage to these other than convenience that I should know about?
 
 I suppose it all boils down to convenience but when you spend a whole day 
 doing something, enhancing the convenience is very convenient.
 
 For one thing, with a spiggot and strainer as described in  "EASYMASH"*, you 
 can mash, sparge, boil and ferment in the same kettle.
 
 It eliminates using a syphon and all the problems of gunk getting stuck in 
 hoses.
 
 If you have two kettles, you can heat sparge water more conviently with the 
 one with a spiggot.  (see below)
 
 * email to arf for EASYMASH.  No charge :)
 
 >From: mcnally at wsl.dec.com
 >Subject: Re: Sparge question
 
 >I generally brew with about 10 lbs of grain for a nominal 5 gal batch.
 I mash with about 3 gallons and sparge with at least 5 gallons.  I know
 that's supposed to be a no-no, but I feel that when I carefully monitor
 the runoff there should be no problem.
 
 In what sense is this a "no-no"?  It sounds perfectly "nominal" to me.  You 
 could squeeze a lot more out of it using more sparge water or you could waste 
 a lot by using less.
 
 
 >From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
 >Subject: Sparge temp
  
 >Basically, what Jack's experimental
 data shows, is that a 212F sparge water into a shallow bowl resting on
 the top of the grain bed results in a significant drop in temperature
 when measured in the grain bed and in the runoff.  I can't find my
 copy of Jack's post, but suffice it to say that the temp in the grain
 bed was about 170F and the runoff temp was somewhere around 160F.
 
 It was closer to 135.
 
 >Here's what I'm thinking:  maybe the 170F sparge water *already accounts*
 for the drop in temperature.  Maybe we *don't* want 170F in the grain bed
 - -- maybe we want 145F in the grain bed and 130F in the runoff (I'm making
 these numbers up -- I've never measured)?
 
 >It's Mike's post that led me to wonder about what temp we *really* want
 in the grain bed.  Comments?
 
 By coincidence, I adressed most of this, this morning but I just wanted to 
 add some comments as a followup.  I think most of the experts agree that the 
 ideal temp for sparging is around 170F.  This seems to be based on chemestry, 
 biology and physics and I am not about to yell momily.
 
 I will however, point out that in many cases, homebrewers are victims of 
 scale-down from what works for commercial processes and what works in 
 mega-barrel batches simply does not work on a 5 gal batch.
 
 The heat loss from a small batch is much greater than from a large one.  If 
 it is important to sparge at 170F, then I suggest that the sparge water 
 temperature should be determined by measureing the temperature within the 
 mash and not by what is hoped for.
                          
 .........
 
 I just completed a new gadget to make brewing more "conveninent" and thought 
 I would share it with yall, before I actually use it on the next batch.
 
 I have been tying up my brew kettle by using it to heat (boil) sparge water 
 while sparging.  This means I can not start boiling till all the sparge is in 
 the tun.  It also means that I have to anticipate my sparge water demand in 
 advance.
 
 I made a simple continuous boiler that heats hot tap water to the boiling 
 point about as fast as it runs into (and out of) the lauter tun.
 
 It consists of a 6 qt enameled stock pot with a barb fitting near the top 
 that is connected to the water tap.
 
 Near the middle are some fittings that provide about a foot of copper tubing 
 going out, to run into the lauter tun and a couple of inches on the inside to 
 draw water about an inch below the surface (to avoid dross) and an inch above 
 the bottom (to avoid sediment).
 
 When ready to sparge, the mash tun is moved from stove top to a stool and 
 becomes the lauter tun.  The boiler is placed on the stove to line up with 
 the tun and fired up.  Water is boiling by the time the mash has settled and 
 I have an infinite supply of it.
 
 I can now start boiling the wort as soon as I have a few gallons and have cut 
 several hours off the brew time.   I also eliminate having to bring 7 gals of 
 water to a boil while mashing.   I doubt that there is any energy savings 
 because I have to keep the burner on full heat for the entire sparge whereas 
 with the big kettle, I could throttle it way down once it came to a boil.
 
 BTW, not the least of the reasons for boiling sparge water is to get rid of 
 the chlorine.  I suspect, however, that my continuous boiler is not as 
 effective at this as boiling the whole kettle and keeping it hot for hours.
 
 js

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Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1992 17:41 EST
From: STROUD <STROUD%GAIA at leia.polaroid.com>
Subject: sparge water temp., wyeast, and STUFF

>From HBD #847, Jack S.:

>My point is NOT that boiling water is the ideal sparge temp but that no
> matter what the sparge temp is, the mash itself never sees anything close to
> what is going in.

> Next time you do a sparge, run a thermomenter up and down the lauter tun to
> determine the actual temp profile.  With boiling water going in, I get a
> range of 135F coming out to 155F near the top.  Matters can only get worse
> using water at the "correct" temp. 

Jack, what do you sparge in?  And do you do a mashout?

Lots of homebrewers use insulated igloo coolers that are very efficient in 
retaining heat.  Although I have never probed the actual mash, I find that 
when I mashout at 170 F and my sparge water goes in at 170 F, I get the sweet 
wort out of the lauter tun at 150 F minimum, usually even hotter depending on 
the speed of sparging. In such a setup, boiling water for sparging probably 
isn't desirable.   
_______
Also, from: mcnally at wsl.dec.com 

>>My general rule is that I quit sparging when the runoff starts
 tasting like tea.

From Jack:
> That is a bit subjective.  

Perhaps, but only a bit.  It is a very accurate description of what sparge 
water tastes like once the sugars are washed out of the grains.
You'd be surprised at ho wort!
_________
Also, >From: gummitch at techbook.com (Jeff Frane)

> >Yo. The answer is yes. And why not, indeed?

From Jack:
 >Yes, what and why not what? 

The first question was:  Is the yeast on the outside in a packet of Wyeast?
And the second was: Why not just make a starter using the yeast without 
breaking the innner packet?

Steve

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Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1992 18:14 EST
From: Frank Tutzauer <COMFRANK at ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu>
Subject: VMS decompression of Z files--help!

Ok, great.  The Cats Meow 2 is out.  But somebody needs to help us VMS
folks.  I know, I know, the rest of the world is UNIX.  But I (and some
other folks I'm sure) are stuck on VMS.  We can ftp to mthvax just fine.
We can grab the files just fine.  BUT WE CAN'T DECOMPRESS THEM.  We don't
have the UNIX utilities, and even if we did I wouldn't be surprised if 
some glitches didn't arise.  UUDECODE doesn't work.  Trying to grab the
files sans the Z extenstion doesn't work.  Praying, chanting, and cussing
doesn't work.............  In the months and months I've been reading
the HBD and using USENET, I've seen the question of how does a VMS user
decompress the UNIX files arise several times.  But I've never never never
seen an answer.  Somebody help.  And POST your answer, so all of us VMS types
can profit from it.

thanks,
- --frank


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Date: Thu, 19 Mar 92 18:30:09 EST
From: Jay Hersh <hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu>
Subject: a comment


long ago Rob G. chided me for not breaking posts up into paragraphs.
It now seems others are guilty of this.

Please use paragraphs it makes posts easier to read, and even though
it looks like wasted bandwidth it's actually only a single <CR> character..

Thanks,
	JaH

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hopfen und Malz, Gott erhalts

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Date:         Fri, 20 Mar 92 17:30:18 PLT
From: Tim Rushing <RUSHING at WSUVM1.CSC.WSU.EDU>
Subject:      Shipping hombrew (?)

I'm new to homebrewing (4 batches so far.)  I do have one beer that
I'm quite proud of, and I'd like to send a few to my dad, who never
drank beer until a business trip to England.  My dad lives in
Tennessee, and I live in the state of Washington.

Are there any homebrewers out there that have experience sending
through the mail?  Thanks in advance.

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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1992 16:17:33 EST
From: tim at MTNET2.WVNET.EDU
Subject: Distilling

I am in search of information about distilling, other that the book Lore of 
Still Building.
Will beer kegs do for a cooker ?
What is the ideal temp. ?
What about a thump keg  or a dry keg ?
What should be done to insure the purity of the distillate  ?


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Date:     Sat, 21 Mar 92 23:36:16 PST
From: Jared Rhine <jrhine at jarthur.Claremont.EDU>
Subject:  Sanitizer lifetime

Could someone state the facts (or their opinion) on the lifetimes of
the various sanitizers?  I'm using a chlorine-based sanitizer (powder).
How long is this stuff good for?  If I have a bucket of it set-up the
night before brewing, can I resanitize my, say, thermometer with it?
Or do I have to mix up a new batch?


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Date: Sunday, 22 March 1992 11:26am ET
From: joshua.grosse at amail.amdahl.com
Subject: Michigan Brewpub Legislation


This is for Michigan's beer lovers where ever they are:
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Representative Curtis Hertel (D-Detroit) has introduced a bill (House
Bill 5407) that would allow Brewpubs to exist in the state.  A "brewpub"
is a restaurant or bar that brews its own beer for serving on the premises.
These very small breweries have made significant contributions to the
variety of beers and brewing in the U.S.

The full House is scheduled to take this measure up in the next few weeks.

To support this bill, beer lovers who would like to see brewpubs become
reality in Michigan should exercise their civic duties and contact their
legislators.

House members should be contacted immediately by phone and mail and
encouraged to vote for this bill when it comes to a vote of the full
House.  Senators should also be encouraged to support this bill once it
passes the House.

Rep. Hertel should also be contacted -- offers of support, appreciation,
etc., are always welcome.  He may also need knowledgeable people in the
industry to testify if and when the bill is taken up by the Senate.

When contacting a legislator, there are a few things to keep in mind:

o  They deal with hundreds of bills, so cite the specific bill: 5407.

o  Give your reasons for supporting it in your own words -- form letters
   and scripts are not nearly as effective as your personally stated
   opinions.

o  Try to stay positive.  (e.g. "Brewpubs would be great in Michigan!"
   or "Our state's economy would benefit!" but not "It's about time
   you idiots allowed this!")

Should you wish to go the extra mile, you might suggest meeting with
the legislator and sharing a fine commercial beer or a homebrew, so
that they can get an idea of what the issue really is -- good beer
for Michigan.

Thanks.
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Josh Grosse                                jdg00 at amail.amdahl.com
Amdahl Corp.                               313-358-4440
Southfield, Michigan

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Date:        Sun, 22 Mar 92 11:54:54 EST
From: JIM MCNUTT <INJM%MCGILLB.bitnet at VM1.MCGILL.CA>
Subject: JOINING

Dear Sir:

I was given some information about your outfit and would like to get
onto your mailing list or get information about accessing your BB
and how to use it.  I'm always interested in learning more about
brewing.

Thank you.

Jim McNutt

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Date:        Sun, 22 Mar 92 11:58:17 EST
From: JIM MCNUTT <INJM%MCGILLB.bitnet at VM1.MCGILL.CA>
Subject: JOINING

Dear Sir:
I'm sending this note to two email addresses which were given me and
hope that you get one.  Could you please tell me how to go about
getting information about your BB.  I saw some partial information and
found it to be good, interesting stuff.  I'm always interested in learn-
ing more about brewing.  Thanks.

Jim McNutt

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Date: Sun, 22 Mar 92 21:41:50 PST
From: gschultz at cheetah.llnl.gov (Gene Schultz)
Subject: Salvaging bad beer

I recently made a batch of German-style dark ale (with plenty of
Australian dark malt extract, Hallertau hops, Wyeast European Ale
Yeast, and a few other amenities).  I opened the first bottle about ten
days after bottling, and was quite disappointed by a strong acrylic
flavor that made this ale almost undrinkable.

I periodically drank a few bottles over a period of a month or so
anyway, hoping that the bad taste would start to go away in time.  It
didn't.  Then I remembered an accident with several bottles of a batch
of lager with a similar off flavor that I had brewed about a year
earlier.  While out of cold beer one weekend, I had put several bottles
of the ale in the freezer to cool down quickly, and left them there too
long--until they were mostly (but not entirely) frozen.  When the beers
defrosted, the off flavor had disappeared.  I froze a few bottles of
the German ale, then put them back into the refrigerator to defrost.
When I drank a bottle about a day later, the off taste was gone
entirely.  I then asked a friend to take a blind taste test comparing
the regular German ale to the same ale that was frozen then defrosted.
He complained about the taste of the former, but reported enjoying the
latter.

I'm not claiming that freezing ale or beer will solve any problem
related to off tastes. I would like to suggest instead that for acrylic
or plastic off flavors, you might try freezing a few bottles and see if
this method improves the taste.

Incidentally, in both cases in which my ale had an acrylic off flavor,
I failed to rapidly cool down the wort after brewing.  I am wondering
if freezing the ale afterwards gave me some kind of a badly needed
(albeit late) cold break or something?  Any ideas?

                                 ---Gene Schultz
                                    Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory
                                    schultz3 at llnl.gov


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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 92 10:45:21 -0500
From: mccamljv at ldpfi.dnet.dupont.com
Subject: Growing Hops

Fellow Brewers,

	I just received my first HOP rhizomes in the mail yesterday
	(3/19). I bought three types; Saaz, Eroica, and Hersbrucker from
	AGS in IL. (800) 444-2837 in case anyone wants it.

	My question is this, What (qty. wise) can I expect to harvest off
	of these vines in the first season?? Different amounts from each
	variety ?? I realize that it depends on a multitude of variables,
	but I don't plan on cultivating genetically engineered hop plants
	or using Miraclegro fertilizer, just general stuff. BTW I live in
	the N.East (PA) which has pretty normal weather. I didn't purchase
	a hop growing book (yet) (I don't read software manuals either) so
	this is just a 'in your experience' question.  

	Also, has anyone out there successfully nurtured hop plants in
	an indoor setting, not a greenhouse but an apt.?? I am not
	planning on being at my current address for very long and I had
	in mind a big pot with a trimmed down trellis setup. Any tips?? 

	Thanks in advance for your help.
	

 - Joel McCamley  "Constantly Relaxing, Not Worrying,
	           and Having a Homebrew"

	P.S. I am in no way associated with Alternative Garden Supply,
	     Miraclegro etc. etc. yackity yak yak yak.................


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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 92 12:46:29 -0500
From: "a.e.mossberg" <aem at mthvax.cs.miami.edu>
Subject: files in recipe-book archive at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


As many of you have noticed, requests to netlib like

send cats_meow.ps.Z.uu from recipe-book

don't work. I forgot that netlib converts all requests to lowercase.

Here is a new index for the recipe-book subdirectory:

The Cat's Meow - The Homebrew Recipe Book
(provided by Karl Lutzen, lutzen at novell.physics.umr.edu)

Volume 1:

cats_meow-1.ps through cats_meow-15.ps	PostScript Version
cats_meow				Plain text
cats_meow.uuz				compressed, uuencoded file

Volume 2:

cat2					Plain text
cat2.uuz				compressed, uuencoded file
cat2.ps					PostScript version
cat2.ps.uuz				compressed, uuencoded file
cat2-cover-ps				cover sheet for PostScript version
cat2-cover-ps.uuz			compressed, uuencoded file


NOTE: If you are using netlib, you must request the *.uuz versions where
noted. Failure to do so will likely result in a message from netlib
advising you that you have exceeded the permissible size, *and you
will not receive any requests*.


- -- 
aem at mthvax.cs.miami.edu .......................................................
I wish I had invented sex.				- Debbie Harry


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #848, 03/24/92