FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Orlando area Brew Pubs (Greg_Habel)
  How do I get the cat to meow? (WAYNE HINES)
  fish (Sterling Udell)
  re: blended beers (mcnally)
  break (Russ Gelinas)
  Training Hops and Munich Bierstubes (Norm Hardy)
  crystal malt color and amount (semi-long) (Tony Babinec)
  Re: EASYMASH (korz)
  Dry Hops and Green Sludge (ZLPAJGN)
  hop supply in wisconsin (dave ballard)
  Chiller-less cooling , trub, hop heights (David Van Iderstine)
  Re: Chiller-less cooling (korz)
  Training Hops - Up Or Out ? (Richard Childers)
  using your yeast cake (mcnally)
  re: hop vines: vertical or horizontal? (Dick Dunn)
  Re:  Homebrew Digest #852 (March 30, 1992) (colin mccrossin)
  Re: EASYMASH (chilling) (korz)
  Chimay white & bottle weight (korz)
  Haze info from Micah Millspaw (Bob Jones)
  True Brew (trwagner)
  Sanitizing an immersion chiller (Brian Davis)
  re: John's Monster, brewing w/sugar (John Hartman)
  wort chiller, lager/ale (Jeff Frane)


Send submissions to homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
[Please do not send me requests for back issues!]
Archives are available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 92 08:52:12 est
From: Greg_Habel at DGC.ceo.dg.com
Subject: Orlando area Brew Pubs


I will be in the Orlando area from April 4th to the 14th.  If anyone 
has any info on Brew Pubs or Micros in the area please let me know 
asap.  Greg.




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Date:         Mon, 30 Mar 92 09:16:11 EST
From: WAYNE HINES <IWLH%SNYCENVM.bitnet at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject:      How do I get the cat to meow?


     HELP!
     Can anyone help a disgruntled VM/CMS user I need to make another
     batch. Could someone help me by either sending me a copy of the
     cats meow 1 and/or 2, or telling me how I can get it myself. It would
     also be helpful to know how to access the archives. As I understand
     it our system is BITNET running under VM/CMS.

                                     Thanks for your help
                                                  Wayno

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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 92 09:29:06 EST
From: sterling at glorfindel.umcs.maine.edu (Sterling Udell)
Subject: fish

QXN132 at URIACC.URI.EDU (Vickie) writes:

>     Relatively recently in the past, someone posted instructions on how to
>build a wonderful gadget for brewing.  I only got installment #2, and promptly
>lost it.  Could the person who posted the instructions/designed this wonder ple
>ase send me the information?  The gadget was set up tp run on natural gas when
>heating and was up on legs with a spigot to make removing the contents easier.
> It also required lots of welding...

	This reminds me of a couple of things that I was going to ask
this august body :) when I got time, which I now seem to . . . While
visiting my brother in Key West recently, we held a fish fry (with
plenty of homebrew too, o'course).  I had never done a large-scale
outdoor fish fry before, but my brother pointed out that the deep fat
frier setup would be _perfect_ for boiling wort.  I immediately
concurred. 

	For those of you who haven't seen one of these beauties, it
consists of a big metal tripod with a _large_ propane burner and a pot
platform on top.  I assume you'd want to use a regular brewpot instead
of the frier on top, but it seemed like the unit itself would need no
modification.  It could also probably be easily modded to run off
natural gas, but since the great wilderness of central Maine (and Key
West, for that matter) uses propane for everything, I see no such
need. 

	For those of you who _have_ seen one of these beauties, has
any of you ever tried one for boiling wort?  I don't recall if I
heard how much it cost, but it seems at least worth looking into.  Any
experience, or am I going to have to rush out and buy one of these
myself?  Purely in the name of research, of course.  :)

	One other thing.  While in Key West I saw a number of
salt-water aquariums, and a common piece of equipment for them was a
combination thermometer/hydrometer.  Didn't measure in degrees Balling
or potential alcohol %age, of course - just specific gravity - but
that's good enough for me.  The convenience of both hydrometer and
thermometer in one handy package is quite enticing; this _is_
something I think I'll go out and buy as soon as I have a chance to
scour the pet stores, but I'd like to ask the HBD again: has anyone
used one before?

String
- --
Sterling Udell (sterling at gandalf.umcs.maine.edu, sterling at gandalf.bitnet)
Big Dog Brewing Cooperative - Eastern Division
"Carpe Pisces!"
		- David Smith


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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 92 08:25:38 -0800
From: mcnally at wsl.dec.com
Subject: re: blended beers


In HBD 852, Conn Copas mentions a recipe for making a strong ale by
blending barley wine and pale.  Well, with about 30 bottles of a 
heavy barley wine that's refused to carbonate, I'm in an ideal position
to try this out.  I'll let you know.

_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
Mike McNally                                           mcnally at wsl.dec.com
Digital Equipment Corporation
Western Software Lab

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Date:    Mon, 30 Mar 1992 11:24:15 -0500 (EST)
From: R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas)
Subject: break

Jack sez:
> I understand but the longer it sits, the more time is has to settle out.  My 
> thinking is that if it sits after chilling, it is subject to infection and 
> without mucking up the lid, the kettle can not be covered properly while the 
> chiller is inside.  One obviously does not want to remove the chiller after 
> thewort is chilled. 

A couple of things. I *do* pull out my chiller after it's done its job.  I
then pitch the yeast, stir the wort into a vortex, and let settle for an hour 
or 2 before transferring to a carboy.

> In my experience, somewhere well into the boil, stuff starts coagulating into 
> what looks like egg-drop soup.  If this point is the "hot break", I accept 
> the definition but let's call the stuff something else.

That's it. Unfortunately, like "trub", its a term that probably won't go away.

> Similarly, the "cold break" should be some temperature at which this stuff 
> collects and drops to the bottom during chilling.  Again, in my experience, 
> it is a very specific point AND much of the stuff clumps together and floats 

Actually it is a range of temperatures.  I seem to remember a Zymurgy article
that spelled out what precipitates out at what temperature.

I don't really see why Hot/Cold break "stuff" is better than just Hot/Cold 
break.  Discussions of break time deal only with the stuff produced at that 
time.  There's little room for confusion.

Now I've got a question for you.  In your easymash setup, have you ever had
any problems with the window screen drain/spigot setup getting clogged with 
hops/trub when you transfer off to the carboy?

On a similar note, could someone who's using a hopback explain their setup/
procedure please?

Russ

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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 92 08:51:14 PST
From: polstra!norm at uunet.UU.NET (Norm Hardy)
Subject: Training Hops and Munich Bierstubes

Where does one go to drink beer in Munich?   Anywhere one wants....
Think of it as heaven, beer heaven, and take your sweet eternal time to
explore the many different beers available on tap (vom fass).

Hops:  my 3 varieties are up, with the 2 Cascades being 2 feet high already.
Last year I tried training the Hallertauers to go horizontally, sort of
helping out every time they were ready for the next string.  It took more
time and care but the harvest was easier, although not much.

The pros go vertical primarily because of space and the nature of the vines
to head that way.  A mechanized picker does the dirty work later.  Obviously
they can't worry about each and very pole.

On my Cascades and Herzbruchers I use a trellis which is 9 feet off the 
ground.  After making the climb up to the top, the vines meander over and
through the cross-hatched twine.  Harvest is easy as I just cut the twine
until it all falls down. 

Finally, I have found that twine is easiest for the hops to cling to and
climb up.  The wood poles were too thick and caused some hop vines to get
knocked off by wind or rain.

Norm Hardy (in Seattle)

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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 92 11:14:53 CST
From: tony at spss.com (Tony Babinec)
Subject: crystal malt color and amount (semi-long)

This posting summarizes the recent thread on crystal malts and
colors.  

Crystal malt is malt steeped and kilned in such a way that it
becomes a dollop of sweetness and body to add to your brew.  For
the extract or grain brewer, crystal malt gives some body and
luscious flavor to what might otherwise be a thin brew.  In using
crystal malt, color is also an issue.

As shown in the AHA beer style guidelines, or in Fred Eckhardt's
"Essentials of Beer Style," beer styles have acceptable color
ranges.  If you are making a beer "to style," you'll want to take
the guidelines into account, and then use knowledge of the color
property of malt to get your beer in the right ballpark.

First, here is a table that attaches some useful descriptives to
numeric color ratings:

numeric       description
- -------       -----------
 0 -    2.5   yellow   light
 2.5 -  3.5            pale
 3.5 -  5.5            deep straw/gold

 5.5 -  8     amber    light
 8   - 10              medium
10   - 14              deep

14   - 18     dark     brown/black
18+                    black

Source:  appendix of George and Laurie Fix's "Vienna," although
Fred Eckhardt has a similar table.  Eckhardt's book also employs a
second rating scale on a 1-10 range.

Second, here is a table showing the color ratings and contributions
of crystal malts:

malt          1#/1g   1#/5g
- ----          -----   -----
cara-pils       1.5     0.3
crystal 10L    10.0     2.0
crystal 20L    20.0     4.0
crystal 30L    30.0     6.0
crystal 40L    40.0     8.0
crystal 60L    60.0    12.0 
crystal 80L    80.0    16.0
crystal 90L    90.0    18.0
crystal 120L  120.0    24.0

Notice that cara-pils malt is lumped in with the crystal malts. 
Think of cara-pils as adding those dextrins you want for sweetness
and body while making only a minimal color contribution.  This
makes cara-pils malt a nice addition to the grain bill of any
German-style lager, and especially the light-colored ones.  See
Noonan's "Brewing Lager Beer" or Miller's "Continental Pilsner" for
some recipes.

Notice also that the Lovibond rating is the color contribution of
1 pound of the crystal malt in 1 gallon of water.  Dividing by 5,
we get the color contribution of 1 pound of each malt in the
typical 5 gallon batch.  Thus, taken by itself, 1 pound of 120L
crystal malt should approximately result in 5 gallons of wort of
color 24, which would make the wort dark by the first table's
indication.  As for SG, depending on your extraction efficiency,
you should get 4-5 points (1.004 to 1.005) of gravity per pound
of malt. 

Crystal malts have different national origins.  There are U.S.,
British, and German crystal malts available.  Some of the best
crystal malt includes Maris Otter crystal malt, as well as Ireks
"light" German crystal malt and "dark" crystal malt.  George Fix's
recent HBD append showed that "light" is probably 10L and "dark" is
probably 60L.  Homebrewers should press their suppliers to provide
crystal malt with Lovibond ratings.  U.S. crystal malts from Briess
Malting typically have a color rating.
  
Use of inferior crystal malt, or too great a quantity of crystal
malt, will result in "coarse" flavors in the beer.  In practice,
homebrewers have used British crystal malts in a German beer, and
vice versa, as the proportion of crystal malt in the recipe is not
very large.  As for amounts, Terry Foster's pale ale recipes, which
use pale ale malt as the base malt, use crystal malt additions in
the 4 to 8 ounce range.  George and Laurie Fix's basic Vienna
recipe, which uses pilsner malt as the base malt, employs 6 ounces
each of 10L, 60L, and 120L crystal malt to produce an amber beer.
So, don't over-do the percentage of crystal malt in your recipes.
Instead, make judicious use of darker crystals and other dark
malts.  
  
Finally, George Fix's HBD posting also showed that the color
contribution of color malt to your wort is contingent on water
hardness.  Other HBD postings have mentioned the wort-darkening
effect of splashing hot wort.  In an appendix to "Vienna," George
and Laurie Fix make the point that the "color arithmetic" wherein
homebrewers take into account grain volume and color rating to
"predict" the expected color of the resulting wort is roughly
additive for light-colored beers but not strictly additive for
amber beers.  

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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 92 11:40 CST
From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
Subject: Re: EASYMASH

Three comments on EASYMASH:

1. The "screen-around-the-pipe" lauter tun is indeed simple, but I want
to again point out that the advantage of a more elaborate system would
be better extraction (drawing all the runoff from the center of the tun
reduces the amount of sugar you extract from the grains at the sides of
the tun).  This is not a big deal for beginners, but you may want to
mention the trade-offs that you make going with a simple system.  It
validates why your system is so much simpler -- some are sceptical when
you offer "something for nothing."

2. You should point out that this is a single-step infusion mash and
thus requires well-modified malt (Pale malt).  Using less-modified
malt (such as Lager malt) would require a protein rest.

3. "Strike" temperature, is not the temperature of the mash, rather,
the temperature of the "hot liquor" (water) before mixing with the
milled grains.  If you correctly calculate the strike temperature
(based upon the mass of the water you will use, mass of the grain you
will use and the initial temperature you want your mast to be), upon
mashing-in, your mash will be at the correct, pre-calculated, initial
temperature and you won't have to add heat unless it is a very long
rest or if your mash tun is uninsulated.  I think what you meant was:
"When the 'saccharification' temperature is reached, reduce the heat
and stir occassionally..."

Al.

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Date:    Mon, 30 Mar 92 11:51 CST
From: ZLPAJGN%LUCCPUA.bitnet at UICVM.UIC.EDU
Subject: Dry Hops and Green Sludge

Dear Brewers,

After freeing up my carboy from the monstrocity I was brewing (BTW,
thanks for the advise, all!), I decided to try something a bit more
challenging than simple extract-syrup brewing, and brewed up my first
lager, following the recipe (as closely as possible, this time :-) )
in Papezian for "Propensity Lager."

Of course this was a learning experience in every respect, and I'm
sure this particular experience isn't over yet.  And, just as one
discovery spurrs twenty more questions (at least that's what they're
teaching at the graduate level these days), this particular learning
process has generated quite a few questions...

First of all, I used crystal malt; I cracked it, then added it to the
boil-pot (w/ 1.5 gal. water) and strained just after the boil began.
But, instead of fishing around in the boiling brew with my strainer, I
simply poured it through a strainer into a temporary, second (aluminum)
pot, and then back into the original pot.  I then added the 5 lbs of
dry light maly extract all at once, and it all seemed to "clump"
together, mostly dissolving but some marble-sized beads remaining and
later strained out.  I also added the Saaz hop pellets straight into the
boil.  This I also did with the finishing and flavoring hops.  The only
sugar called for was 2.5 lbs of clover honey.  I let this calderon boil
moderately (not vigorously) for 45 min, as per the recipe, then cooled
it - without straining the wort yet - by setting the pot in a tub of
cold water for about an hour or so.  When it was cool enough, I strained
out as much on the hops as I could (Pap.'s recipe calls for straining or
sparging the hops straight after the boil :-? ), and that proved to be
a long and tedious process.  I had thought, given the nature of pellet-
ized hops, that I'd have to use a COFFEE strainer, but the kitchen
strainer proved to be enough og a trial!!  I had to pour a bit, spoon
through the strainer to let the wort pass, spoon out the spent hops,
then start again.  The whole process took about half an hour!!

When I finished, the wort in the fermenter looked like thick, milky
caramel!  I then topped off the fermenter with water to fill it to
the neck. I pitched two packets of dry lager yeast (wort temp = approx.
65F) and fitted a blow-off hose to the top of the carboy, emptying
into a pitcher filled with about an inch of water acting as a lock.
Fermentation began vigorously within 24 hrs and is continuing still,
though not so vigorously now.

OK, now the questions:

  1) The wort is STILL a milky-caramel in color!  Is this normal?  Will
  it clear eventually?  If not, do I need to rack to a secondary?
  I'd like to keep it in a closed container, so, in the event of racking
  can I simply rack to a temporary (pail-like) container, clean out the
  carboy, and reuurn it?  I'm not that comfortable with this idea.
  If I don't need to rack, what are the possibilities that the beer
  will clear as it lagers in the bottle?

  2) The kreausen is rising, but not enough (yet?) to pass through the
  blow-off hose.  Will it in time (it's been brewing sinse Sat.)?  If
  not, will I have to scoop it off?  There's still a green sludge (hops)
  at the top, and I'm concerned that, if the fermentation does continue
  to the point where my blow-off hose is actually useful, will this
  sludge clog the tubes?  Again, I guess it boils down to a question
  of racking...

Any directions?

Not Worrying  (a first, for me :-) )

John

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Date: 30 Mar 1992  13:11 EST
From: tbird!dasher.cc.bellcore.com!dab at bellcore.bellcore.com (dave ballard)
Subject: hop supply in wisconsin


several people have asked me to post this, so here goes.  this is 
the info from a postcard i received the other day...

- -----------------------------------------------------------------
		HOP RHIZOMES

Available mid-April to late May:  Hallertau, Tettnang, Fuggles,
Willamettes, Bullions, Cascades

	$3.00/ea or 4 for $10 (postpaid)


	Growing instructions included.

Dried hops available August-September.

Write or call:

		Matucheski Farms
		N4628 Hwy H
		Antigo, WI  54409

		(715)627-7167
- ------------------------------------------------------------------

i'm also following a lead on a hop supply place in new jersey.  i'll
post something when i get more info...

 -dab

=========================================================================
dave ballard			"Life may not be the party we hoped for,
dab at dasher.cc.bellcore.com       but while we're here we should dance."
=========================================================================



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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 92 13:21:43 EST
From: orgasm!davevi at uunet.UU.NET (David Van Iderstine)
Subject: Chiller-less cooling , trub, hop heights

>In HBD #852:
>From: Dennis.Henderson at Eng.Sun.COM (Dennis Henderson)
>Subject: Chiller-less cooling

>After the boil (malt extract and seperate hops) I have ~2.5 gallons of 
>wort.  I put the stainless steel kettle in the sink in the garage.  
>I fill the sink up to the wort level and add six ice trays of ice cubes.
>I stir the ice water every five minutes.  After 15 minutes I dump the 
>water and repeat.  
>
>After less than 30 minutes the wort is down to 100 degress F.  I combine 
>with 2.5 gallon of off-the-shelf "purified water" that has been in the 
>deep freeze for the brew session (~2 hours).  The mixture is then 
>very close to 70 degrees F so I pitch.  

This sounds just fine to me. I wouldn't change a thing, unless you want
to.  This is what I also did for my first dozen batches or so. The
primary reason I made an immersion wort chiller was that I was tired of
buying bags of ice cubes, and the hassle of having to siphon out the
sink periodically to keep it from overflowing. It's true the chiller
does take another pot, or bucket, to sterilize in. I use a plastic foot
basin.  As with everything else, I use a couple oz.'s of Clorox per
gallon to at least rinse with or immerse in, then a tap-water light
rinse. I don't get overly concerned about sterilizing the copper. I
even forget to some times.

The big deal, as I understand it, is to reach the "cold break" as
quickly as possible. Someone else could certainly give better technical
details than I as to the particulars of this break; it affects final
clarity. Anyway, quicker is better. However, I think your 30 minutes is
fine. What concerns me is folks who leave it overnight to chill.

I would clean the garage sink, though. Cold, unfermented wort is about
the best bacteria food you could have there. The lids helps, but
hey, how tough is it to splash some clorox around in the sink first?

- ---
Regarding the thread about secondary racking for non-lagers, I was
taught this was important, if for no other reason, than to get the beer
off the trub (as korz at ihlpl.att.com also mentioned). I was told to
leave beer in the primary no less than 2-3 days, no more than 5-7.
No less, so "bad" sediment has a chance to precipitate, no longer so
it's not re-absorbed having precipitated. Let's not forget that
most micros and all professionals take the trub off the bottom of
their fermenters as it forms, so they can get away without racking
from the primary. I've yet to see a glass carboy or plastic bucket
up to the same trick. BTW, I always use a blow-off tube during
primary, as I was taught the foam coming off was undesirable.

- ---
About hop heights: The guy at Freshops that I just spoke to after
having purchased some Cascades rhizomes recommended a trellis height
of 10' to 12', with sideways running strings. I asked about 6' height,
and he said that was absolute minimum; 10'->12' was better, 18' was
unneccessary. Training would be required though, as well as selective
pruning. He indicated the vigorous side shoots would begin at 6' or so;
Papazian in CJOHB recommends removing leaves below 6' to inhibit upward
spread of lift wilt. Sounds like an overhead trellis canopy might be
ideal; I can think of little nicer environment than a beer garden with
canopy of flowering hops just overhead!

Incidentally, Freshops dried hops prices are INCREDIBLE!

- -- Dave Van Iderstine





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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 92 13:21 CST
From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
Subject: Re: Chiller-less cooling

Dennis writes:

>2.  Perhaps I should add the hot wort and cold water to the plastic 
>primary fermenter and pitch the next day when the mixture is down to 
>the correct temperature.  Wouldn't this give more time for infection to 
>get into the beer before fermenting takes over.

Yes.  Not only that, but pouring hot wort (over 80F) will oxidize the
wort -- at the least darkening the beer, at worst giving you sherry-like
or cardboardy flavors.  [On a related note, while brewing a Chimay-clone
last weekend, my cousin and I were tasting 750ml bottles of "Red" and
Grand Reserve.  I felt that both (only 3 months old) had a sherry-like
nose, whereas my cousin said they remind him of the "smell of a liquor
store."  He read from Jackson's pocket guide that the 750ml bottles
age differently than the capped (330ml) bottles.  I said "yes -- it's
probably due to the porosity of the cork which causes some oxidation...
sherry-like or wet-cardboard aromas."  At this, he replied: "THAT'S IT!
It smells like the damp cardboard boxes in some liquor stores!"  I
checked again, and identified the smell myself, but felt the sherry-like
smell was dominant.]

>3.  An immersion chiller would take another large pot for sterilizing.  
>Or do folks pour the wort into the primary and boil the chiller in the 
>wort cook pot.

Not necessarily.  I simply use the boiling wort to sanitize my immersion
chiller.  Again, you want to avoid transfering hot wort -- any aeration
will cause oxidation.

Al.

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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 92 11:30:28 PST
From: Richard Childers <rchilder at us.oracle.com>
Subject: Training Hops - Up Or Out ?


"Date: Fri, 27 Mar 92 14:14:50 PST
 From: rush at xanadu.llnl.gov (Alan Edwards)
 Subject: hop vines: vertical or horizontal?

"David Van Iderstine mentioned in HBD #851 that hops should be trained
 sideways, and not up.  This has raised a good question.  It seems to be
 conventional wisdom that they should be trained straight up--about 20
 feet up in fact.  Maybe the big-time hop farmers only do this to save
 space and grow more hops per acre.  Maybe they would indeed grow better
 if they were trained horizontally.  Maybe it doesn't matter, as long as
 they get plenty of sun."

The conventional wisdom - and this applies to tomatoes and other plants,
also - is that a trellis guiding shoots laterally gives easier access to
the resulting fruit, as well as increasing exposure to light on a per-
flower basis, since you don't have lower fruits shadowed by those above.

- -- richard

=====
- -- richard childers		rchilder at us.oracle.com		1 415 506 2411
	oracle data center  --  unix systems & network administration
	... Minds are like parachutes ... they operate best when open.

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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 92 11:38:23 -0800
From: mcnally at wsl.dec.com
Subject: using your yeast cake


If, like me, you don't always have the time and energy to brew up a
batch of wort just in time to pitch over a yeast cake from a previous 
batch, here's an idea I've been trying.  Go to your local "natural foods"
store (or Trader Joe's) and buy 5 gallons of unfiltered unpreserved 
apple juice.  Chill at least a couple of the bottles, then pour it all
over your yeast cake after racking off some just-finished beer.  Add
some honey dissolved in real hot (like just boiled) water and let it
go.  Your yeast will be ECSTATIC, and you'll end up with an acceptable
hard cider ready for those whiners who show up and don't want to drink
your homebrew; the cider will surprise them both with its taste and its
sneaky strength.

Just a thought!

_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
Mike McNally                                           mcnally at wsl.dec.com
Digital Equipment Corporation
Western Software Lab

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Date: 30 Mar 92 12:38:21 MST (Mon)
From: rcd at raven.eklektix.com (Dick Dunn)
Subject: re: hop vines: vertical or horizontal?

rush at xanadu.llnl.gov (Alan Edwards) writes:

> David Van Iderstine mentioned in HBD #851 that hops should be trained
> sideways, and not up.  This has raised a good question.  It seems to be
> conventional wisdom that they should be trained straight up--about 20
> feet up in fact...

Hmmm...I'd missed David's note or I certainly would have countered it.
Hops want to grow UP.  "Training" them really involves giving them some-
thing to hold on to as they climb, since they're going to *try* very hard
to grow upward.

The commercial hops I've seen were trained along mostly-upward diagonals.

> First, has anyone tried growing hops BOTH ways, and found one way produces
> a higher yield?  (Hmm, I thought not.)...

I tried to train hops to go horizontally.  We got into a big argument over
it.  It wasn't a matter of yield; it was a matter of the hops not being
willing to go horizontal...
    Me: OK, gals, you're set up to climb these trellis-things here 'til you
	get to the deck.  Then there's cord strung up to get you as far as
	the deck railing...
    Hops: Great!  That will take care of us for a month, maybe a little
        more.  Then what?
    Me: Well, then I've got more cord to take you horizontally alongside
        the deck rail.
    Hops: WHAT???  We don't do "horizontal"  We won't take this lying down!
    Me: Why not??  Look, what am I supposed to do--set it up so you can
	climb all the way up to the roofline?
    Hops: You got it, buster.  Oh, and you might want to figure out where
        we're going after we get to the roof.

I had some of the vines headed mostly-vertical and tried to get others to
go horizontal.  They simply didn't want to do it...I'd go out and find that
the vine wasn't winding around the cord.  With persistence you can go out
every day and wrap the vine around...but forget about doing it for a day or
two and you've got this anorexic green dragon waving its head in the air,
looking in the window and saying "Give me something to CLIMB, dammit!!"
The ones I forced to go horizontal didn't do well at all.

> I've just planted my hops, and am NOT looking forward to (read: dreading)
> buying a BIG ladder; buying 20' poles; standing them in the ground;
> stringing cable and twine; and trying to harvest hops that are growing
> straight up 16 feet or so.

Just get a pole and forget the ladder.  Arrange it so that you can drop
the pole down to the ground--for example, pivot it at the bottom and
arrange to anchor it (to the house or garage) part-way up.  (I saw some
antenna-mounting hardware used for this.)  Run several heavy cords from
the top of the pole out at angles to the plants.

> The idea of sending them up 6 feet or so and then over to the eves on my
> roof sounds MUCH easier...

Yeah, but six feet is barely a start.  Are they close enough to the house
that you can mount a pole by the house and train them along cord up to the
pole (diagonally upward)?

>...And, it would provide a wonderful shade for my
> back yard.  It would probably look pretty cool too.  Does anyone grow
> them in this way?...

Yes...the lower part of my plants provides seasonal shade for my office.
Nice feature--they fill in just as the weather gets hot.  They drop their
leaves around when the days get short, the weather gets cool, and you'd
like more sunshine.

You'll get shade by letting them spread out just a bit as they grow upward;
you don't need to run them horizontally.  They really do want to climb.

>...How big is your yield (or is that a personal question)?

(It is, but the yield of my hops plants isn't quite so personal.)  It
depends a lot on the age of the plants.  Where I am--dry climate, erratic
weather--it took several years for them to get established.  The first year
they really grew, I got maybe the equivalent of an ounce dried.  Now I get
a good-sized basket of hops from each plant.
 - - -
Dick Dunn    rcd at raven.eklektix.com   -or-   raven!rcd    Boulder, Colorado

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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 92 14:45:46 EST
From: colin mccrossin <cmccross at dumpster.helios.nd.edu>
Subject: Re:  Homebrew Digest #852 (March 30, 1992)

Please stop sending me mail.  Quit.

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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 92 14:28 CST
From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
Subject: Re: EASYMASH (chilling)

Jack writes:
>UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas)
>
>>Jack, I know when you said to just let the chiller sit in the wort for
>30 minutes without turning the water on, you were defining an experiment
>of sorts.  I'd just like to say that in practice, you want to turn the water
>on immediately to cool the wort as quickly as possible.
>
>I understand but the longer it sits, the more time is has to settle out.  My 
>thinking is that if it sits after chilling, it is subject to infection and 
>without mucking up the lid, the kettle can not be covered properly while the 
>chiller is inside.  One obviously does not want to remove the chiller after 
>the wort is chilled.

Why not?  I chill my wort with an immersion chiller, and when it is at 70F,
I simply pull out the chiller, cover the pot and let it sit for an hour to
settle.

>If it sits for 30 minutes hot it can not get infected 
>and is not much different from an additional 30 min boil for a chemestry 
>stand point but it gets an extra 30 settling time.

Oh yes it is different.  When the wort is boiling, it is boiling off the
DMS that is produced, whereas when the boil stops, DMS keeps being
produced until the wort drops below 140F, which unfortunately is in the
bacteria-friendly range.  You are correct in saying that keeping the wort
hot will kill bacteria that happen to slip into your kettle, but incorrect
in saying that it's okay to delay cooling.

>>  In fact, the faster you cool, the more fluffy stuff you'll see.  That 
>stuff is the cold break.
>
>>The hot break happens during the boil, when proteins, etc. clump together.
>
>The problem with these terms is that in one instance they indicate a stage in 
>a process and in another/both they indicate physical stuff.

Yes it is a problem, but the meaning, "stage" or "stuff" can be determined by
context.

>In my experience, somewhere well into the boil, stuff starts coagulating into 
>what looks like egg-drop soup.  If this point is the "hot break", I accept 
>the definition but let's call the stuff something else.

I'm afraid we're stuck with the terminology -- it's been used for years
and the HBD can't change the whole homebrewing community.

>Similarly, the "cold break"...

Similarly, we can't change the meanings of cold break.  If you must,
I suggest "hot break trub" and "cold break trub."  All due respect to
Carl Sagan, but have you tried his IPA?  Not nearly enough hops for the
style :^).

>I have big troubles understanding how this works or can be as effectively 
>utilized with an in-line chiller.

As you mentioned earlier, it requires you to siphon or pump into an
intermediate vessel and then siphon or pump into the fermenter.  The
advantage of a counterflow chiller is that the wort cools much more suddenly
which, as Russ mentioned, will give you a better cold break (the stage).

Al.

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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 92 14:33 CST
From: korz at ihlpl.att.com
Subject: Chimay white & bottle weight

Is Chimay Cinq Cents the 750ml version of the Chimay "white cap?"

To Pat (the resident bottle weight expert):  I suggest you try weighing
Whitbread or Mackeson's bottles -- my bet is they are heavier than
the returnable longnecks and could be in the running for the heavyweight
champion.  Also try Orval bottles, another heavyweight favorite of mine.

Al.

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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1992 12:37 PDT
From: Bob Jones <BJONES at NOVA.llnl.gov>
Subject: Haze info from Micah Millspaw

Since there has been a lot of discussion about haze I'll tell what I
know. This is a paragraph from a paper I'm working on about a related
topic, this info may be somewhat confusing and hopefully thought provoking.


        It is known that oxidation plays an important part in the formation
of protein haze and that melanoidins function as anti-oxidants and prevent
the oxidation of protein. Oxidation also plays an important part in the
production of colloidal haze, hence the name "oxidation haze", first coined
by Helm. Moreover, the formation of chill haze is also considerably
increased by oxidation. Oxidation of melanoidins and reductones will result
in a lower content of stable colloids. Unstable colloids promote chill haze
and permenent haze in beer. Stable colloids prevent chill haze. Permanent
haze is the end product of chill haze. If you get chill haze permanent haze
will follow in time . The stability of beer colloids is the result of
a very complex equilibrium, and the whole problem of colloidal haze
formation is difficult. A better understanding the problem will show it
possible to take some steps to limit its effects in the finished beer.


        Also I've read George Fix's new book Vienna. I like it because
it has vindicated my atempts at the style, when I get the authentic
ingredients suggested by Fix ( already ordered) I hope to have these
beers nailed down. One bad thing though, the book is full of typos, a
failing common to all Brewers Publications books and Zymurgy and New
Brewer.

                                        Micah Millspaw  3/30/92

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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1992 16:14:01 -0500
From: trwagner at unixpop.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: True Brew

        Has anyone ever tried the True Brew kits?  Also, has anyone ever
made some soda from those soda extracts that are in brew shops?  If so, how
did you make it, and how did it turn out?  I am thinking about making some
sasparrilla.

        Thanks





Ted


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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 92 08:27:56 pst
From: Brian Davis <brian%mbf.uucp at ics.uci.edu>
Subject: Sanitizing an immersion chiller

Dennis Henderson said:
	>3.  An immersion chiller would take another large pot for sterilizing.
	>Or do folks pour the wort into the primary and boil the chiller in the 
	>wort cook pot.

Why not just plop the chiller into the boil for the last few minutes?

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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 92 09:55:58 -0500
From: hartman at varian.varian.com (John Hartman)
Subject: re: John's Monster, brewing w/sugar

Fellow Brewers--

In digest 851 Frank Willis suggests a correlation between the outgassing of foul odors during
fermentation and the use of sugar.

I am presently brewing a batch which contains 70% pale malt, 20% dark brown sugar, 10%
British crystal, Wyeast 1098, Centennial for the boil and finish.  With the exception of the
brown sugar this is a routine recipe fo me.  I've too have heard the caveats regarding the use
of sugar but I'm experimenting and I know that it's widely used in English breweries.  During
the early ferment it smelled strongly of rotten eggs, which I figure is hydrogen sulfide.  I've
read too many digest to stress and worry, but I must admit the thought of an infection did
cross my mind.  After seven days in fermentation the beer looks and smells fine.  There is a
slight residual sulfide smell, but it's definitely tapered off.

So I'm left with the strong impression that this sulfur phenomenon is associated with the
brown sugar, since it's the only thing I changed.  Comments?

Cheers,
John

ps: Hats off to Karl and Mark for the fine job they've done on the Cats Meow II

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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 92 10:22:17 PST
From: gummitch at techbook.com (Jeff Frane)
Subject: wort chiller, lager/ale

First of all, thank you to the hordes who sent responses to my wort
chiller questionnaire.  It was definitely a poor idea to post that and
go away for three days!  So I will post some concrete responses after I
get back from going away again.  A number of people provided very long
and helpful responses, including some specifics about construction.
Thanks particularly for those.

The one obvious comment that can be made from scanning quickly through
the responses is that immersion coolers are favored overwhelmingly by
the HBD and rcb crowd, mostly because of convenience, cost and concern
over sanitizing counterflow chillers.  I was also pleasantly surprised
to see that a number of people were using wort chillers even though they
weren't doing all-grain beers.  I was also pleased (intimidated) to see
how many people were planning on showing up in Milwaukee and will no dou
doubt heckle my talk/demonstration.  Oh boy.


> 
> From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
>  
>  
>  >Do you mean to say that trying to tell the difference between ale
>  characteristics and lager characteristics based on tasting commercial beers
>  is pointless because of stylistic differences (ie the recipes are so
>  different that you won't be able to isolate taste differences due to the
>  yeast)?? 
>  
>  No.  I said not a word about yeast.  This is not a discussion about yeast.  
>  It is a discussion about the difference between the taste of ale and lager.  
>  How the producer achieves the difference is irrelevant.
>  
>  I was told to go buy a few bottles of commercial ale and lager to determine 
>  the difference myself.
>  
>  The technical comments lead one to the conclusion that there is enough 
>  variability in technique and recipes that it would be very difficult for an 
>  unsophisticated taster to learn anything in that way.
>  
>  When all of the opinions are sorted out we are left with nothing more that "a 
>  cleaner taste" and a lack of certain esoteric esterish remnants.  Even the 
>  almost universally agreed to "fruitiness" of ale leaves me in the cold.
>  
>  The only fruit I have ever tasted in my ale was bananas and apples resulting 
>  from contaminated yeast and the use of sugar.
>  

Now without getting into too much friction, let me suggest that
there seems to be some stubbornness here.  First of all, it's not
possible to talk about the difference between ale and lager _without_
discussing yeast.  "How the producer achieves the difference" _is_ the
yeast, and the way the fermentation is controlled.

I was probably the person who suggested you try drinking ale and lager
side by side; I reiterate and continue to protest that that's the only
way to learn the distinction.  But I'm admittedly stymied by the fact
that you don't taste the fruitiness in ales.  I guess the real solution
is to deal with what you refer to as the "unsophisticated taster" by
doing some reading on taste profiles and terminology (the material from
the Beer Judge Certification Program is very helpful) and perhaps by
attending a beer tasting "class" either at an AHA conference or held by
your local club.  Beer descriptors aren't necessarily to be taken
literally; they are merely the closest means of defining something that
is necessarily different in everyone's mouth.  The idea of training in a
class is to develop a common understanding of _when_ those terms apply.

I also believe it's relatively simple to see the difference with a
side-by-side brewing test.  Make a very simple beer, all malt and
lightly hopped.  Pitch a pure ale yeast in half and ferment at 65F;
pitch a pure lager yeast in the other half, ferment at 45F, lager for 4
weeks and taste side by side.

- --Jeff



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End of HOMEBREW Digest #853, 03/31/92